PS3 PS3 FAT CECHC04 - COK-002 - GLOD - no video on HDMI and Component

[_XBrD4shDOE_808_]

Ah. Look I found the 2 years ago ordered tantal caps. Will these be okay for a RLOD unit?

the tip I give when replacing tantalum capacitors is always to start on the opposite side of the processor in the MB, as it is easier to work with. replace in RSX, a Nec for 4 tantalum, if not remove the other and add two more, or take a Nec in the processor and add 4 tantalum in its place.

now the doubts:
"why, when taking only one Nec Tokin, should I put 4 tantalum in yours instead of 3 as they always say?"
Simple, both Nec Tokins are weak, by adding only 3 tantalum you will be putting charge to only the one you replaced, by adding 4 you put charge to the one you replaced and one more extra to compensate for the loss by the other one that is also bad

"so if I want to take the two Nec Tokins off one side of the plate and put 8 tantalum in their place, can I?"

Yes you can, it will just be harder to work with, but you will add an extra to make up for the inferior Necs.

 

[carr]

the tip I give when replacing tantalum capacitors is always to start on the opposite side of the processor in the MB, as it is easier to work with. replace in RSX, a Nec for 4 tantalum, if not remove the other and add two more, or take a Nec in the processor and add 4 tantalum in its place.

now the doubts:
"why, when taking only one Nec Tokin, should I put 4 tantalum in yours instead of 3 as they always say?"
Simple, both Nec Tokins are weak, by adding only 3 tantalum you will be putting charge to only the one you replaced, by adding 4 you put charge to the one you replaced and one more extra to compensate for the loss by the other one that is also bad

"so if I want to take the two Nec Tokins off one side of the plate and put 8 tantalum in their place, can I?"

Yes you can, it will just be harder to work with, but you will add an extra to make up for the inferior Necs.

Firstly I'm only thinking piggibacking the caps as Tim did in his video.
(BTW do i have to srcape the green to get ground (or negative), or what is the negative point to solder to on the MB on the negative of the cap? )

 

[Timbo9876]

You need to scrape away the conformal coating to reveal copper. Then you need to add solder to the copper and this is your negative, it's advisable to use flux and obviously don't scrape where there are traces.

I also do remove the entire tokin if it's nesasery, see link below

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[carr]

You need to scrape away the conformal coating to reveal copper. Then you need to add solder to the copper and this is your negative, it's advisable to use flux and obviously don't scrape where there are traces.

I also do remove the entire tokin if it's nesasery, see link below

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Ah, so first i need to try my tokins near the original ones, that they will be facing the positive (bright yellow, with orange line at positive i think), and the other end will need to be scraped, to reveal the copper undereath? Ordered these 2-3 years ago.
Yeah I know. I'm slowly doing these
ordered them because of "my mate vince"

Here is his other which he replaced those big caps with tantal ones.

These are the kind i have too. Does it really necessary to put 4 into the old 1 place?
'coz i only have 20, n there is another RLOD (non backwards compatible) too.
Well its 16, for two. and i have another C4 at my room, but its turned to YLOD after I did the delid. :S Before it was kicking the fan all the time. Not quite remember if it was able to work or not. But I'll check after these came back to life.

 

[Pacorretaco]

Ah, so first i need to try my tokins near the original ones, that they will be facing the positive (bright yellow, with orange line at positive i think), and the other end will need to be scraped, to reveal the copper undereath? Ordered these 2-3 years ago.
Yeah I know. I'm slowly doing these
ordered them because of "my mate vince"

Here is his other which he replaced those big caps with tantal ones.

These are the kind i have too. Does it really necessary to put 4 into the old 1 place?
'coz i only have 20, n there is another RLOD (non backwards compatible) too.
Well its 16, for two. and i have another C4 at my room, but its turned to YLOD after I did the delid. :S Before it was kicking the fan all the time. Not quite remember if it was able to work or not. But I'll check after these came back to life.

He told you, It may work "if" it needs capacitor job.
Listen to what he said. That's a pretty big IF.
How do you know if your machine has a capacitor problem in the first place?

Spoiler

If you are just doing this randomly based on some rumor you heard on the internet about a "magic YLOD fix" or whatever, you may just be chasing a big lie.
That Vince video may have had good intentions for example but it is very misleading. Is most likely what is called a "false positive"... That machine may have turned on but not really because of capacitors. And obviously we dont know how long it worked afterwards.

If the capacitors are fine to begin with (most likely) then you would be not only wasting your time, you would also be making the problem worse. Especially if you use hot air.
Not to mention those yellow capacitors are not made for something like this. They have very high ESR.

In any case, it seems like you are doing stuff like this for more than just 1 machine, so it may be time to stop while you can, and do some proper diagnosing. It will save you time and frustration, and the poor boards will thank you for it too.

This video might help

Also there are more active threads in this place with experienced people that can help, so feel free to post there too.

https://www.psx-place.com/threads/f...syscon-first-steps-and-error-reporting.30100/

 

[Timbo9876]

Yep, Syscon is the only way to pin down the actual problem. I will be doing some syscon reads when it's required in the future. However if you don't have the hardware to do a syscon read then adding one cap to the RSX side is the only way to check if its potentially a cap issue. I mainly referbish working consoles, I think its better to prevent failure than fix it. Computer Booter selling Frankenstein PS3 consoles for 800 dollars with a six month warranty is questionable as the reliability is unknown hence the short six month guarantee. As for tantalum caps being a magic fix we'll this site is just as much to blame for the hype! Now we know only 10 percent of consoles will need tokins replaced with the main reason being a dead RSX chip. The original chip had a manufacturing flaw in the die causing it to fail. However there could be other factors at play and only time will show us if this is the main reason for GPU failure. So let's not make the same mistake twice and now say that replacing the GPU will immortalise your backwards compatible PS3 because there is a chance it won't.

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[Pacorretaco]

Yep, Syscon is the only way to pin down the actual problem. I will be doing some syscon reads when it's required in the future. However if you don't have the hardware to do a syscon read then adding one cap to the RSX side is the only way to check if its potentially a cap issue. I mainly referbish working consoles, I think its better to prevent failure than fix it. Computer Booter selling Frankenstein PS3 consoles for 800 dollars with a six month warranty is questionable as the reliability is unknown hence the short six month guarantee. As for tantalum caps being a magic fix we'll this site is just as much to blame for the hype! Now we know only 10 percent of consoles will need tokins replaced with the main reason being a dead RSX chip. The original chip had a manufacturing flaw in the die causing it to fail. However there could be other factors at play and only time will show us if this is the main reason for GPU failure. So let's not make the same mistake twice and now say that replacing the GPU will immortalise your backwards compatible PS3 because there is a chance it won't.

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Whoah friend, I didnt even mention the word RSX or GPU! Hahaha.
So please hold your horses there a little.
That being said, yes I agree with a lot of what you say.

This site was to blame a lot for the recent waves of destruction that these machines had to face. It is 2022 and last time I checked, the original post from the Tokin thread has still not been edited or properly rectified. Either by the original person or by some moderator, to protect newcomers from reading the first page only and proceed to the destruction based on misinformation.
At minimum the first page should clearly mention step 0: Diagnosing

Spoiler

So yeah, at least now we know better
to say that these capacitors are very rarely the real problem in these old machines, (less than 10% as you say) and nobody should touch them blindly.
RSX related issues may be much, much more common but look, I still wouldnt say they are the main cause.

If you ask me, the main and probably worst cause of problems for these machines is people that search and destroy these machines based on wrong assumptions.
This includes the so called "preventative maintenances" that often go wrong or achieve opposite effects. Be it "tokin jobs", Heatguns, failed delids, bent boards, cracked /crushed chips, broken connections simply due to board flex, etc etc... the list goes on and on...

I will even agree with you and maybe include the difficult "frankenstein mod" as a possible cause of destruction instead of salvation, If pursued for the wrong reasons and by the wrong people, to the wrong machines and with the wrong expectations.

Ok, now the part where I really disagree: There is no excuse for skipping the diagnostics.
If you mean you dont already have a generic serial adapter to communicate with the Syscon, the answer is to get it. They are plentiful and inexpensive. Can be found for about 2 dollars and they are worth it. Even if you didnt use it for diagnose a YLOD, they are still useful and enable you to do other stuff as well.

Even more so if you are considering messing with capacitors. I'm sure the capacitors werent free either, but that didnt stop people from obtaining them somehow (often paying high amounts) When in reality they didnt actually need a single capacitor.
And even then, the waste of time and unnecesary damages could also be avoided. All this gets compounded if you start to deal with multiple machines and not just 1.

This person was already doing some maths, trying to remove tokins and "fix" multiple YLOD machines with a "limited amount" of yellow tantalums...

These are the kind i have too. Does it really necessary to put 4 into the old 1 place?
'coz i only have 20, n there is another RLOD (non backwards compatible) too.
Well its 16, for two. and i have another C4 at my room, but its turned to YLOD after I did the delid. :S Before it was kicking the fan all the time. Not quite remember if it was able to work or not. But I'll check after these came back to life.

 

[Timbo9876]

Yep, agree with absolutely everything you have said. I am one of the converted and will be getting everything I need to diagnose the Syscon.i will be looking for help from here when I do. I do believe though that simply fixing this console won't prevent future failure and so many console repairers don't do the basics. Using high quality thermal pads and thermal paste is an absolute must. We know the tokins can fail so let's put pads on these as well!

I have 30 backwards compatible motherboards, I buy broken consoles for parts like the PSU or blu-ray drive, so consoles with working motherboards can have these parts swapped out, I'm looking into getting a bga rework station, can anyone recommend a decent one for lifting the processors from PS3 backwards compatible console?

If you maintain these consoles and referbish them properly (and only de-lid if nesasery) then you can increase the life of this console for years. Custom firmware is an absolute must to have a preventative fan profile instead of a reactive one! I truly believe Syscons fan profile is responsible for a high percentage of these consoles failing. So use webman and have your system running at 32 percent from the moment it's switched on. I understand people on here wanting to dive deep into the mechanics of this machine as the syscon codes can now be obtained but don't forget the basics otherwise the console will end up on the scrap heap like all the rest. So let's remember not just to diagnose but also prevent and educate people why we need to do the basics so this console, (the best console ever made in my opinion) can enjoy a long and happy life. [emoji4]




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[Timbo9876]

Oh, sorry, didn't answer your question regarding the tokins, you can use 3 tokins of 470uf to replace one NEC tokin. I always used 4 as I believed the extra capacitance could potentially prevent tokin failure in the future.

You can of course create a false positive doing this and here's why. The GPU can be revived by heat, its already been proven that adding around 159 degrees to the RSX die can temporarily revive your graphics chip. Because we need heat to remove the tokins and add the tantalums, this heat could transfer to the RSX chip and revive the console.

Obviously if you piggyback one or two onto the existing NEC tokin then far less heat is used and certainly not enough to revive the RSX. So by using the piggyback method you take this factor out of the equation. I have no hard evidence of this, I'm purely talking fro experience.

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[carr]

He told you, It may work "if" it needs capacitor job.
Listen to what he said. That's a pretty big IF.

Thank you!

Ordered this syscon reader 2 weeks ago, so I ain't doin' anything til' that. :R

edit:
Tim:

around 159 degrees to the RSX di

Is it F° or C° you've mentioned above?

 

[Timbo9876]

Yep 150 degrees centigrade

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[St3v3b82]

Liquid metal is really working, look at this GLOD recovered console. Along with the pressure mod it also has the tantalum caps piggybacked on, along with the liquid metal under the RSX heat spreader.

Over two hours on TLOU and on 32 percent fan speed the temps are insane (see pic)

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Wow. Really insane temps... Was that on a CECHC machine? Liquid metal only under the IHS of the RSX?

I've a slim 250x console, delidded and liquid metal under the IHS of both chips, my temps playing TLOU are CELL 58°C and RSX 63°C at 37 percent fan speed. Is that a proper temp for a slim with liquid metal as thermal paste?
Do you know if it is ok or normal that the RSX is about 5 to 6°C hotter than the CELL?

 

[Timbo9876]

That's normal, yes this is a CECHC03 Phat backwards compatible partial emulation console.
The fan on the slim is smaller so the temps are a little higher, however it has a better chipset that can withstand the higher temps so you have nothing to worry about.

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[NewRetroRepair]

Just a small note so that people are aware. Placing extreme pressure on a BGA chip like the cell is a recipe for long term disaster. Using pressure to re-establish contact between the bottom of the Cell substrate, failing solder balls and the BGA pads of the board is putting the Cell BGA package under pressure far exceeding its design.

The substrate is not designed to handle pressure like this and neither are the BGA pads or solder balls under it. The better fix for consoles where this pressure trick is being applied and works is to have the chip reballed. If I had to venture a guess I'd say the machines exhibiting the GLOD where pressure on the Cell brings them back have taken a shock, e.g. been dropped or banged and one or more of the Cell solder balls has cracked as a result.

PS4's suffer a similar fault with the BLOD.

Applying extreme pressure to the chip is going to make it start "bowing" and essentially become much more vulnerable to failure in the future. This will be exascerbated as it undergoes thermal expansion and contraction whilst under pressure.

The plus side though is if it comes back to life under pressure then you know that's it's HIGHLY probable the BGA joints have gone bad and need resolving.

One other thing to be aware of is it's highly unlikely the temperature of the Cell is what breaks down the unleaded solder balls. It's far more likely to be an unexpected knock of the console followed by thermal expansion and contraction that damages a solder ball.

I'm super curious how many folks here have dropped their console before this behaviour started. If people mention they dropped it (or not) I'll collate the data and see if there's any corellation.

 

[Timbo9876]

Yes, I'm absolutely sure that a reball is the actual fix however I am sure the pressure mod is not damaging the board as it is so thick. If that was the case you better tell naked snake that his eraser trick is causing damage to the consoles motherboard also!

Not everyone can afford a reball and doing it yourself can result in popcorning the motherboard. I have done this mod on 6 consoles and none of them have failed. One of the consoles has already done over 70 hours of game play and there is no sign of it failing. Maybe in principle it's not a good idea but the reality is that it works and it's a long lasting mod (I have had no failures to date)

So yes do a reball if you dare, or pay to have it done but if the repair shop doesn't fix it its likely they have damaged the motherboard due to the lack of a long pre bake and the extreme temps required to perform the fix.

I stand by this mod, it's safer than attempting a reball, it doesn't seem to cause any damage to the MB and consoles that have had this mod done by me have not failed. If I do get any failures I will make this known on this site, however one of the consoles I did this to is nearly a year old from when it had the mod done. My friend that is testing it is a heavy retro gamer and has played it for many hours.


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[NewRetroRepair]

Yes, I'm absolutely sure that a reball is the actual fix however I am sure the pressure mod is not damaging the board as it is so thick.

It's not the board so much as the interposer, solder balls and BGA pads on both the interposer and board you need to worry about. Those copper BGA pads are fractions of a millimeter thick. Applying extreme downward pressure isn't great for them and it definitely can warp the board even though it's thick. The FR4 material the board is made from is actually flexible and will bend. It's designed to, as it gets hot during operation it'll begin to take on a permanent warp over time.

I don't know if you know about or remember the Xbox 360 "bolt" mod? That's basically what this pressure mod does. It'll work for a while until the board or interposer warp too much under the strain.

Not everyone can afford a reball and doing it yourself can result in popcorning the motherboard.

Obviously that's true. The point of my comment isn't to tell people what to do. It's to inform people as to why this pressure trick is a bad idea. Here's a good explainer using the 360 "bolt mod" as an example, It's not a 1:1 comparison obviously, but the same basic problem is present.

Spoiler: Explanation on why bolt mod is very bad (360)

One of the consoles has already done over 70 hours of game play and there is no sign of it failing. Maybe in principle it's not a good idea but the reality is that it works and it's a long lasting mod (I have had no failures to date)

Well that's not terrible. Many bolt-modded 360's managed similar and longer before failure. The pressure doesn't address the underlying issue however. It's worth bearing this in mind. You're essentially bracing failed electrical connections.

So yes do a reball if you dare, or pay to have it done but if the repair shop doesn't fix it its likely they have damaged the motherboard due to the lack of a long pre bake and the extreme temps required to perform the fix.

Yeah I agree with this. It's best if you ever want this done to send it to someone reputable who knows how to work with older consoles when doing BGA rework. Boards are porous and soak up moisture from the air over time. BC PS3's are around 15 years old. They absolutely need a long pre-bake because they can definitely have a lot of moisture trapped in the substrate. I pre-baked one for 4 hours and the damned thing erupted like mount vesuvius during reflow. Less reputable high street repair shops will likely throw it on the BGA station and kill the board.

I stand by this mod, it's safer than attempting a reball, it doesn't seem to cause any damage to the MB and consoles that have had this mod done by me have not failed.

Sure, it might not seem like it's damaging the board. I'd take the bet that it is however. It's not designed for high pressure. It's not necessarily safer than a reball, It's safer than a reball done in a hurry though for sure.

If I do get any failures I will make this known on this site

Do you have any idea how many of those consoles were dropped before the GLOD? I'm super curious as to how many took a jolt before GLOD'ing.

 

[sandungas]

It's not the board so much as the interposer, solder balls and BGA pads on both the interposer and board you need to worry about. Those copper BGA pads are fractions of a millimeter thick. Applying extreme downward pressure isn't great for them and it definitely can warp the board even though it's thick. The FR4 material the board is made from is actually flexible and will bend. It's designed to, as it gets hot during operation it'll begin to take on a permanent warp over time.

There are a couple of different ways to do the eraser mod (i prefer to name it "the rubber pad mod" because the rubber is a lot better materail to do it), im not going to comment all them but just the most simple one, where there is only one rubber pad located inside the CELL "hole"

With this kind of design we are applying all the pressure directly into the bottom layer of the CELL substrate... we are bypassing the solder balls "through" the motherboard squared hole

As a consequence we are not applying any pressure in the solder balls... actually we are decreasing the pressure on them when compared to the factory design that aplpyes all the pressure into the motherboard

-----------
There is a very important difference in the design of the heatsinks of the XBOX360 and the PS3. In the PS3 there are 2 bolds holding each metal clamp in his place, but that bolds passes "throught" the motherboard without touching it... so the 100% of the pressure is transfered from the tips of the clamp to the center of the clamp, where there is a squared piece of plastic with 4 "bumps"
In other words... is like if the motherboard was "floating" in between a sandwich, and the location of the bolts doesnt matters

Lets say... in the original design we have:
CLAMP--->motherboard--->solderballs--->CELLsubstrate<--->CELLdie<---CELLihs<---heatsink
And with the eraser/rubber design we have:
CLAMP--->CELLsubstrate<--->CELLdie<---CELLihs<---heatsink

In a idealistic world (to make things geometrically perfect) we should make the area of the squared IHS exactly the same size than the squared plastic piece of the clamp at the other side... this way we are creating a sandwich with 2 bread slices of the same size
But in the PS3 is not exactly that... the IHS is an square (lets use it as reference because we cant change it), and the piece of plastic at the other side is an square too, but is half the size of the IHS :/
And the fact that piece of plastic touches the motherboard only in 4 tiny "bumps" doest help either to spread the pressure evenly all along the CELL peripheral

 

[Timbo9876]

So here's my question, have you done a CPU reball on a PS3?

If so how long did it last?

If not, would you like to put this to the test? I am happy to send you one of the GLOD consoles I have used the pressure mod on. You then perform a CPU reball and assuming you actually recover the console we can then see how long it lasts.

Your comments are based on theory as I don't know anyone that has used pressure in the way I have to recover the console.

All theory's have to be put into practice and I'm more than happy to put this to the test. You can play the.console or send it back to me and I can give it to a friend to test.

With regards to the xbox 360 I beg to differ. I know because I know people that tried the bolt method and the console would not last more than a few months, none of the 6 I have recovered have failed and like I said, one of them is nearly a year old.

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[carr]

Just a small note so that people are aware. Placing extreme pressure on a BGA chip like the cell is a recipe for long term disaster. Using pressure to re-establish contact between the bottom of the Cell substrate, failing solder balls and the BGA pads of the board is putting the Cell BGA package under pressure far exceeding its design.

The substrate is not designed to handle pressure like this and neither are the BGA pads or solder balls under it. The better fix for consoles where this pressure trick is being applied and works is to have the chip reballed. If I had to venture a guess I'd say the machines exhibiting the GLOD where pressure on the Cell brings them back have taken a shock, e.g. been dropped or banged and one or more of the Cell solder balls has cracked as a result.

PS4's suffer a similar fault with the BLOD.

Applying extreme pressure to the chip is going to make it start "bowing" and essentially become much more vulnerable to failure in the future. This will be exascerbated as it undergoes thermal expansion and contraction whilst under pressure.

The plus side though is if it comes back to life under pressure then you know that's it's HIGHLY probable the BGA joints have gone bad and need resolving.

One other thing to be aware of is it's highly unlikely the temperature of the Cell is what breaks down the unleaded solder balls. It's far more likely to be an unexpected knock of the console followed by thermal expansion and contraction that damages a solder ball.

I'm super curious how many folks here have dropped their console before this behaviour started. If people mention they dropped it (or not) I'll collate the data and see if there's any corellation.

I think i saw a video where a guy (maybe der8auer) got a chip in his hand, and started to polish the cap of the cpu. If you see a freshly deliddel CELL in our case, the thermal thing is the most thin in the middle, and gets thicker closing to the corners. at this point, I think most cases the ps4s are suffering because of this too.

 

[carr]

ah, they lapping the ihs. sorry