Why can ntfs only load iso?

[jack44556677]

Obviously this limitation is a result of the ridiculous difficulty of implementing a FS driver on a black box system, but does anyone know specifically why?

Also, what do you think - for external drives - is all ISO ntfs the way to go, or is fat32 with a few split file hassles the better option?

Further Rambling Below for those interested :

Typically, when you mount a drive (and have a driver to do so) it "just works", but in this case (although browsing is possible I've only been able to do so in irisman and it is slow as molasses, mmcm will not read/load it) I can only load/symlink/cobra "inject" iso's in the PS3ISO folder at the root of the ntfs drive (confoundingly and frustratingly, PS3ISO is case sensitive although the filesystem is not ).

I usually keep my backups in folder form, and have grown accustom to mmcm (and other loaders) being able to automatically show such titles and load the virtual disc by selecting the eboot itself. If you try to load the eboot from irisman (the only one that allows ntfs browsing for me, though I hear multiman does as well - I did not test that) you are kicked out to the xmb with no disc loaded, and otherwise nothing is recognized/displayed to run in irisman.

I am now in the process of converting everything to iso, so that I can use NTFS (though I am questioning whether my approach REALLY makes more sense than splitting files that are too large and sticking with fat32...) but I would like to know what the technical reason I have to suffer through this is.

Does anyone know?

Thanks for your time in any case!

 

[Coro]

mmcm uses an older "driver" for ntfs (i think it is read only). irisman is slow in a few things because it is made with ps1ight sdk instead of sony sdk.

PS3ISO is case sensitive although the filesystem is not

webman, multiman, irisman, and others expect isos for ps3 games to be in PS3ISO because that is standard decided by homebrew developers. the ps3 filesystem can have both "VIDEO" and "video" folders and they will be different folders with different files.

I am now in the process of converting everything to iso, so that I can use NTFS (though I am questioning whether my approach REALLY makes more sense than splitting files that are too large and sticking with fat32...)

multiman will split iso files to 4gb on fat32 if you copy it from ps3 hdd to usb. so fat32 can use large isos easily. ive never used ntfs on ps3. i only have two pkg games/dlc over 4gb but luckly i was able to split the files inside into two pkgs to install from fat32 (i could have burned a dvd with original pkg on it but i didn't have 8gb blank dvds).

 

[bguerville]

Imho storing game backups as ISO on an external NTFS partition is the best way to go altogether.

The only case for FAT32 is when you use modded games that require the legacy JB folder format, keeping in mind that most users don't use modded games. But for those who do, the easy answer is to have 2 partitions on your external drive, one big ntfs partition for your ISO files & one smaller fat32 for your few modded games in JB folder format.

Use Irisman or Managunz File Managers, you will have no problem naming your folders, dumping/converting iso files & copying/moving files as you wish.

Btw we use upper case folder names in homebrews to make the distinction with genuine system folders which are all in lower case.

Regarding ntfs support in general:

1. Natively ntfs is not supported on the PS3.

2. Iirc the ntfs-3g library was ported by Estwald from Android to ps3 OS, it was included in Irisman file manager. I have used it a lot, it always worked fine for me, I have never made any benchmarks but I don't recall ntfs file operations being particularly slower than FAT32 file operations on the same device.
It's good to remember that file system access performance on ps3 is not very good overall, whether it is fat32 or ntfs.
The SDK reminds developers to limit the number of entries in any folder as much as possible. When using a root or a folder with thousands of files & folders, ps3 file managers soon become close to unusable due to the waiting times each browsing action may bring.
Btw, this alone would make the case for using ISO rather than JB folder format..

The same ntfs library was included in other projects, the Managunz File Manager uses it, prepNTFS relies on it etc..

About 3 years ago, that ntfs library was ported again, this time to be compiled in sprx projects such as webMAN-MOD or sMan for their file managers & ftp servers.

Multiman's file manager (and ftp iirc) uses instead a PFS library that allows to read (not write) the contents of a ntfs partition.

3. There is a fundamental difference between ntfs based ISO support & ntfs file browsing or ftp serving support.
A file manager or the ftp server access ntfs file systems using the functions of the ntfs driver library implemented by the homebrew (each homebrew is different in that regard) but backup managers support ISO file mounting using a different way.
They usually implement a sprx module called rawseciso which provides a way to access iso contents as an emulated disc on any partition including ntfs, and even without a proper ntfs library, as long as there is a predefined map for each iso file to do it.
When you mount an ISO from the PS3ISO folder with your backup manager, its contents is accessed through rawseciso, not through a ntfs file system using ntfs library functions.

4. In theory, ntfs support could be added at kernel level rather than implemented in homebrews through libraries.
It would be an ambitious project that may bring ntfs support globally on the PS3. And if you add ntfs, you may as well add exfat/ext3 etc..

 

[ashura]

Also as well jack i can recommend you to use the splitted iso format on games on fat32 those are working Fine so i keep both kind of formats into the same fat32 usb format it is because that on games like bayonneta or naruto ultimate ninja storm if i convert them to iso games format gives me issues on loading the games so in that case i managed to keep them on jb format instead at the same time that i do use the remaining games as PS3ISO split format

 

[aldostools]

Obviously this limitation is a result of the ridiculous difficulty of implementing a FS driver on a black box system, but does anyone know specifically why?

Also, what do you think - for external drives - is all ISO ntfs the way to go, or is fat32 with a few split file hassles the better option?

Further Rambling Below for those interested :

Typically, when you mount a drive (and have a driver to do so) it "just works", but in this case (although browsing is possible I've only been able to do so in irisman and it is slow as molasses, mmcm will not read/load it) I can only load/symlink/cobra "inject" iso's in the PS3ISO folder at the root of the ntfs drive (confoundingly and frustratingly, PS3ISO is case sensitive although the filesystem is not ).

I usually keep my backups in folder form, and have grown accustom to mmcm (and other loaders) being able to automatically show such titles and load the virtual disc by selecting the eboot itself. If you try to load the eboot from irisman (the only one that allows ntfs browsing for me, though I hear multiman does as well - I did not test that) you are kicked out to the xmb with no disc loaded, and otherwise nothing is recognized/displayed to run in irisman.

I am now in the process of converting everything to iso, so that I can use NTFS (though I am questioning whether my approach REALLY makes more sense than splitting files that are too large and sticking with fat32...) but I would like to know what the technical reason I have to suffer through this is.

Does anyone know?

Thanks for your time in any case!

I think this question has been answered in the post above:

Anyway, here is my short answer: "Because ISO was more simple to implement" -reusing existing code in Cobra-.

Long answer:
The file system ISO9660 was already supported by Cobra. This payload intercepts the SCSI commands from the Bluray drive and redirect them to internal functions that read ISO files locally or through a proxy.

The proxy was initially created to communicate between the payload and a remote server (ps3netsrv).
As these functions require more memory than the amount allowed by the payload, it was implemented as an external plugin.

Estwald (aka Hermes) -an excellent homebrew developer from Wii scene and creator of Iris Manager- ported the NTFS library from Wii to PS3 and implemented it into Iris Manager; allowing the File Manager to create/read/copy/delete files and directories in NTFS. But the files still required to be copied to FAT32 or internal HDD to have some use.

With the release of the source code of Cobra 7.0, the developer behind the payload designed a clever strategy that allowed the PS3 to access the NTFS files reusing most of the existing code in Cobra. This strategy consisted in 3 main components:
1- Create a configuration file in the local file system with an array of all sectors used by an ISO file stored in NTFS.
The new function ps3ntfs_file_to_sectors was added to Estwald's NTFS library for this purpose.
Iris Manager creates this array of sectors in real time (memory); mmCM/webMAN use prepNTFS/prepISO.
2- Create a new proxy plugin (rawseciso) that read the ISO stored in NTFS with the help of the configuration file.
The sectors in the ISO are mapped by the proxy to the sectors in NTFS and accessed as raw data from the disk.
3- Reuse the existing code in Cobra to mount an ISO through a proxy plugin. So mounting a single file (ISO) in NTFS, the PS3 can access several files stored in NTFS using a supported file system.

Estwald improved the initial implementation in Cobra and added his own rawseciso to Iris Manager to support ISO from NTFS.
Months later he retired.

DeanK continued working with webMAN and implemented the NTFS-ISO support through prepNTFS and using the original rawseciso. Later he added prepNTFS and rawseciso to mmCM.

 

[jack44556677]

Thank you very much for all of your totally awesome and comprehensive answers!

Also, thank you very much for your respective time and effort to develop and maintain this site and all the awesome software!