DoublesAdvocate
Member
All 9 of them have the warranty seals. The purpose of me doing the other tests is to rule out all other potential points of failure leaving BGA failure as the only logical remaining factor.
PS3 (Research/Experimental) - NEC/TOKIN Capacitors Replacement - YLOD
- Thread starter Naked_Snake1995
- Start date
Well, I had to log in again to turn off notifications so I can ignore this for 6 months. But I have a special parting gift! Here's my latest YLOD GPU lift - https://imgur.com/a/gbYPAfn
Recognize those areas in the two corners EXACTLY like in the video you so triumphantly posted? Yup, BGA defects!
(Sorry I swiped a small area near the top with my thermocouple, I'll be more careful in the next 50 sets of pictures I take while we wait)
If you'll refer to the multiple studies I posted, you'll find that BGA defects are most likely to form in the corners of a package due to the way it warps. You can also read about the different types of BGA defects and stress cracks that lead to areas that look like that, and how "mechanical contact without coalescence" (just copied and pasted that out of one of them) allows factory defects to function until they shift the tiniest bit. Then you can look at how several of the corresponding areas on the back side of the GPU are completely "non-wet" - also covered in my links.
Feel free to send those pictures to anyone that actually works in the field and get their expert analysis if you don't believe me.
I promise not to come back until I have a way to take a decent video of the weight test. Happy trails!
Recognize those areas in the two corners EXACTLY like in the video you so triumphantly posted? Yup, BGA defects!
(Sorry I swiped a small area near the top with my thermocouple, I'll be more careful in the next 50 sets of pictures I take while we wait)
If you'll refer to the multiple studies I posted, you'll find that BGA defects are most likely to form in the corners of a package due to the way it warps. You can also read about the different types of BGA defects and stress cracks that lead to areas that look like that, and how "mechanical contact without coalescence" (just copied and pasted that out of one of them) allows factory defects to function until they shift the tiniest bit. Then you can look at how several of the corresponding areas on the back side of the GPU are completely "non-wet" - also covered in my links.
Feel free to send those pictures to anyone that actually works in the field and get their expert analysis if you don't believe me.
I promise not to come back until I have a way to take a decent video of the weight test. Happy trails!
SEGA-CD
Forum Noob
No one is going to put any trust in you if act condescending and all high and mighty. Instead of being the bigger man you came here looking to pick a fight instead of calmly and intelligently explaining your reasoning.
You're doing the same thing you claimed Naked Snake was doing (being rude and disrespectful to those who disagree/have had differing success with the caps) which by the way he doesn't do. So not only are you an *ss, you're a hypocrite.
Believe it or not, you wouldn't be getting the feedback you're getting had you been respectful and polite about the matter. More people would be willing to consider your view on the YLOD (which by the way, no one is saying that PS3s never ever need reballing, every BGA device has the chance of failing like that) if you had done so.
Hopefully in 6 months you'll come back with a better attitude about it all.
DoublesAdvocate
Member
Okay so rather than actually respond to any of the flaws in his arguments that I pointed out he just decided to ignore me so I guess I'll just continue pointing out more issues in your """""professional"""" rebuttal. As stated before I don't have a dog in this fight, I am not an authority in electronics repair and would just like know what can be done to keep these things alive and kicking. Things in bold are direct quotes from your posts anything else in quotations are not.
1. "I have no vested interest in reballing"
Thank you for helpfully linking your instagram page, I know this may seem unrelated but the posts on it directly contradict that original quote as we can see that not only do you own a BGA rework station (meaning its significant enough that you would make a major purchase for the purpose of being able to perform reballing work yourself) but that a significant portion of your posts about reballing seem to be related to either the PS3 or the PS4, including this post where you claim you "don't even bother reballing CECHA01 anymore." because "If a reflow doesn't work, they go in the bin." What a very professional and scientific method to determining causes of failure
https://www.instagram.com/p/Bdddcf_lCNY/
1b. "I had less than 10 returns for any reason out of the last 100 fat boys I've reballed."
A minimum of 100 PS3 fats doesn't exactly seem like a small number especially enough to claim you "have no vested interest"
2b. https://www.instagram.com/p/Bj71An6lwLE/ "Another 100 PS3 systems in the books. And I forgot to order more blades until I was empty. Oops." clearly you don't do much work on PS3's I guess, just enough for the number to be in the hundreds
2. "EVERY device with ANY BGA package that gets hot will eventually form stress cracks" and "The PS3 has BGA connections, therefore that study applies to the PS3. It's a purely mechanical problem, the circuit surrounding it doesn't matter.
At no point has anyone here denied this claim, the issue with your assertion that this is the cause of the YLOD error is that even based on the studies you shared this should be a monumentally big issue affecting literally every PC, console, etc that manages to reach above 70C. All electronics should fail within 500 temperature cycles, according to that study it could be as low as 243 temp cycles and as you say "The PS3 has 10 times that amount on the RSX, on a bigger package which can flex even more." meaning the failure rate should actually be even faster than the 243 in that study.
I can just as easily find studies showing "No failures after 3000 cycles between -40°C and 125°C"
https://energiforskmedia.blob.core.windows.net/media/22657/2-brinkfeldt-presentation.pdf
I can just as easily find studies showing "No failures after 3000 cycles between -40°C and 125°C"
https://energiforskmedia.blob.core.windows.net/media/22657/2-brinkfeldt-presentation.pdf
3. "I can see the tell tale signs of either stress cracks, a "head in pillow" defect, or a "non-wet" defect"
The Head in pillow defects that you posted seem to be related to failures that happen direct from the factory, the study has nothing to do with the BGA stress cracking related to temp cycles which is what you keep asserting. The title of the study is even called "Defects and Mitigation through Assembly Process Modifications and Control" here's an excerpt from the opening paragraph that makes this more clear "Often these insufficient or intermittent solder joint defects go undetected during manufacturing despite inspection with conventional X-ray systems. They also are insidious reliability defects that often escape the normal testing procedures and fail at the end user site."
4. Your reasoning for why the slims stopped failing is that "Better designs, lower TDP, better manufacturing methods. It's kind of expected that they learn from their mistakes and cut down on manufacturing defects that lead to premature failure."
A. "Better designs" The slims have the same BGA layout as the fats do for both the CELL and the RSX, they also have smaller heatsinks with fewer heatpipes and a smaller surface area which ties neatly into the next point.
B. "lower TDP" The slims kept failing until the tokins were removed in the 21XX revision the TDP drop between the 2 of them is also only 20-25W. The PS4 pro, Xbox One X and essentially all other high end GPUs also have much higher TDPs than the original CECHA/B/C/E models which at their peak only draw about 230W across both chips while high end GPUs and consoles with their APUs pack all that wattage into a single die not the 2 found in the PS3/360
C. "better manufacturing methods" If the manufacturing methods were put into place in the slim revision then why are you still reballing ps4's which began production 4 years after the original slims? Did sony just happen to forget that it was the only major issue killing their consoles prematurely? Did they lose the formula to the better solder alloy?
5. "Why did they switch from a Samsung flash to a Macronix? They made a new device, they pick new parts."
I agree that their change of components doesn't necessarily imply the old ones were all failing but the more logical reason to this isn't so flippant. The tantalum caps used in the slims are smaller which given that the purpose of the slim is to make it well, slim, makes more sense.
6. "A lower temperature means a longer life - the "rule of 10s" regarding temperatures is generally that a MTBF is doubled for each 10C drop. So, we're talking THOUSANDS of heat cycles."
You didn't actually provide any evidence for this claim or really any of your claims that you're some kind of authority on the subject of BGAs.
I would still be willing to believe this if you didn't completely ignore the fact that although the PS3 doesn't reach 100C, many high end PC components DO, and quite frequently. It's extremely common for things like gaming laptops, macbooks, and workstation GPUs to reach 95-100C under load so logically rather than the "THOUSANDS" you claim the PS3 should withstand since it only hits a mere 80C every one of those high end or poorly cooled devices should be toast after less than a year of use.
7. You claim that you don't repair slims because "I don't buy Slims since the profit margin sucks, so I don't know anything about them."
https://www.instagram.com/p/BROwWs4FVyk/
As we can see here you're repairing a DS lite which from what I can see in the sold listings page on ebay go for only $20. But that's fine since you claim you're "not in it for the money." However then your justification for not knowing anything about slims doesnt add up. It seems to me like the more likely scenario is that you don't know how to fix them and after a few reballings didn't get you anywhere you just gave up. Oh wait, heres a picture of yours https://www.instagram.com/p/BIWQF92jSCE/ with a stack of 8 superslims "Doin' work #consolerepair"
You really love posting actual studies with actual evidence and I really do appreciate that, but aside from a photo of a bachelors degree in computer engineering from 2006 on your ebay page you haven't presented any professional credentials to support the idea that you can interpret these studies in any meaningful way, for all we know you could have focused on cryptography during your university program. We can also see by the posts on your Instagram page that you run your entire business out of what looks like your living room, garage, and basement. The brand of your reballing station seems to just be some random cheap Chinese brand that sells on sites like alibaba.
It doesn't exactly surprise me when your $800 rework station catches fire https://www.instagram.com/p/BPqHskpjgwK/
If you were a professional you wouln't be buying from a company that uses literal comicsans on their website (http://www.easybga.com/en/achi-hr56...cal-alignment-bga-repair-station_l66_p14.html).
That makeshift fume hood seemingly constructed from saranwrap, scrap metal, and 2x4s doesn't seem very healthy by the way
https://www.instagram.com/p/Bq5YOLWnfiz/
Heres some video proof that his reballing station and workbench are literally inside his home.
https://www.instagram.com/p/BjKjxPolj-6/
Lastly, why do you have a photo on your instagram of you with a torn off tokin saying "The TOKIN massacre is finished. Long live tantalum"?
https://www.instagram.com/p/Blsnw_Hl7Of/
Given you claim you're 35 on your instagram account if/when you do return I would expect a more adult response than the ones you've given so far. Please also note that I have not insulted or personally attacked you in any way. Everything surrounding the PS3specialist guy suggests he's a scammer even on his own youtube videos you've got people asking "bro I sent you my console and I haven't heard from you in weeks" so I am interested to know how much you charge for a reball and where I can purchase that service.
1. "I have no vested interest in reballing"
Thank you for helpfully linking your instagram page, I know this may seem unrelated but the posts on it directly contradict that original quote as we can see that not only do you own a BGA rework station (meaning its significant enough that you would make a major purchase for the purpose of being able to perform reballing work yourself) but that a significant portion of your posts about reballing seem to be related to either the PS3 or the PS4, including this post where you claim you "don't even bother reballing CECHA01 anymore." because "If a reflow doesn't work, they go in the bin." What a very professional and scientific method to determining causes of failure
https://www.instagram.com/p/Bdddcf_lCNY/
1b. "I had less than 10 returns for any reason out of the last 100 fat boys I've reballed."
A minimum of 100 PS3 fats doesn't exactly seem like a small number especially enough to claim you "have no vested interest"
2b. https://www.instagram.com/p/Bj71An6lwLE/ "Another 100 PS3 systems in the books. And I forgot to order more blades until I was empty. Oops." clearly you don't do much work on PS3's I guess, just enough for the number to be in the hundreds
2. "EVERY device with ANY BGA package that gets hot will eventually form stress cracks" and "The PS3 has BGA connections, therefore that study applies to the PS3. It's a purely mechanical problem, the circuit surrounding it doesn't matter.
At no point has anyone here denied this claim, the issue with your assertion that this is the cause of the YLOD error is that even based on the studies you shared this should be a monumentally big issue affecting literally every PC, console, etc that manages to reach above 70C. All electronics should fail within 500 temperature cycles, according to that study it could be as low as 243 temp cycles and as you say "The PS3 has 10 times that amount on the RSX, on a bigger package which can flex even more." meaning the failure rate should actually be even faster than the 243 in that study.
I can just as easily find studies showing "No failures after 3000 cycles between -40°C and 125°C"
https://energiforskmedia.blob.core.windows.net/media/22657/2-brinkfeldt-presentation.pdf
I can just as easily find studies showing "No failures after 3000 cycles between -40°C and 125°C"
https://energiforskmedia.blob.core.windows.net/media/22657/2-brinkfeldt-presentation.pdf
3. "I can see the tell tale signs of either stress cracks, a "head in pillow" defect, or a "non-wet" defect"
The Head in pillow defects that you posted seem to be related to failures that happen direct from the factory, the study has nothing to do with the BGA stress cracking related to temp cycles which is what you keep asserting. The title of the study is even called "Defects and Mitigation through Assembly Process Modifications and Control" here's an excerpt from the opening paragraph that makes this more clear "Often these insufficient or intermittent solder joint defects go undetected during manufacturing despite inspection with conventional X-ray systems. They also are insidious reliability defects that often escape the normal testing procedures and fail at the end user site."
4. Your reasoning for why the slims stopped failing is that "Better designs, lower TDP, better manufacturing methods. It's kind of expected that they learn from their mistakes and cut down on manufacturing defects that lead to premature failure."
A. "Better designs" The slims have the same BGA layout as the fats do for both the CELL and the RSX, they also have smaller heatsinks with fewer heatpipes and a smaller surface area which ties neatly into the next point.
B. "lower TDP" The slims kept failing until the tokins were removed in the 21XX revision the TDP drop between the 2 of them is also only 20-25W. The PS4 pro, Xbox One X and essentially all other high end GPUs also have much higher TDPs than the original CECHA/B/C/E models which at their peak only draw about 230W across both chips while high end GPUs and consoles with their APUs pack all that wattage into a single die not the 2 found in the PS3/360
C. "better manufacturing methods" If the manufacturing methods were put into place in the slim revision then why are you still reballing ps4's which began production 4 years after the original slims? Did sony just happen to forget that it was the only major issue killing their consoles prematurely? Did they lose the formula to the better solder alloy?
5. "Why did they switch from a Samsung flash to a Macronix? They made a new device, they pick new parts."
I agree that their change of components doesn't necessarily imply the old ones were all failing but the more logical reason to this isn't so flippant. The tantalum caps used in the slims are smaller which given that the purpose of the slim is to make it well, slim, makes more sense.
6. "A lower temperature means a longer life - the "rule of 10s" regarding temperatures is generally that a MTBF is doubled for each 10C drop. So, we're talking THOUSANDS of heat cycles."
You didn't actually provide any evidence for this claim or really any of your claims that you're some kind of authority on the subject of BGAs.
I would still be willing to believe this if you didn't completely ignore the fact that although the PS3 doesn't reach 100C, many high end PC components DO, and quite frequently. It's extremely common for things like gaming laptops, macbooks, and workstation GPUs to reach 95-100C under load so logically rather than the "THOUSANDS" you claim the PS3 should withstand since it only hits a mere 80C every one of those high end or poorly cooled devices should be toast after less than a year of use.
7. You claim that you don't repair slims because "I don't buy Slims since the profit margin sucks, so I don't know anything about them."
https://www.instagram.com/p/BROwWs4FVyk/
As we can see here you're repairing a DS lite which from what I can see in the sold listings page on ebay go for only $20. But that's fine since you claim you're "not in it for the money." However then your justification for not knowing anything about slims doesnt add up. It seems to me like the more likely scenario is that you don't know how to fix them and after a few reballings didn't get you anywhere you just gave up. Oh wait, heres a picture of yours https://www.instagram.com/p/BIWQF92jSCE/ with a stack of 8 superslims "Doin' work #consolerepair"
You really love posting actual studies with actual evidence and I really do appreciate that, but aside from a photo of a bachelors degree in computer engineering from 2006 on your ebay page you haven't presented any professional credentials to support the idea that you can interpret these studies in any meaningful way, for all we know you could have focused on cryptography during your university program. We can also see by the posts on your Instagram page that you run your entire business out of what looks like your living room, garage, and basement. The brand of your reballing station seems to just be some random cheap Chinese brand that sells on sites like alibaba.
It doesn't exactly surprise me when your $800 rework station catches fire https://www.instagram.com/p/BPqHskpjgwK/
If you were a professional you wouln't be buying from a company that uses literal comicsans on their website (http://www.easybga.com/en/achi-hr56...cal-alignment-bga-repair-station_l66_p14.html).
That makeshift fume hood seemingly constructed from saranwrap, scrap metal, and 2x4s doesn't seem very healthy by the way
https://www.instagram.com/p/Bq5YOLWnfiz/
Heres some video proof that his reballing station and workbench are literally inside his home.
https://www.instagram.com/p/BjKjxPolj-6/
Lastly, why do you have a photo on your instagram of you with a torn off tokin saying "The TOKIN massacre is finished. Long live tantalum"?
https://www.instagram.com/p/Blsnw_Hl7Of/
Given you claim you're 35 on your instagram account if/when you do return I would expect a more adult response than the ones you've given so far. Please also note that I have not insulted or personally attacked you in any way. Everything surrounding the PS3specialist guy suggests he's a scammer even on his own youtube videos you've got people asking "bro I sent you my console and I haven't heard from you in weeks" so I am interested to know how much you charge for a reball and where I can purchase that service.
Naked_Snake1995
Senior Member
.
Sent from my G8141 using Tapatalk
Sent from my G8141 using Tapatalk
nCadeRegal
Senior Member
I looked at this guys eBay page and well I'll just let you guys look it up and see what I'm talking about. As for someone commenting earlier about why this thread was stickied, I did it. I saw YLOD consoles getting fixed and a very good explanation at why. Not some reball bs that I doesn't last for long. I'm very eager to see how long these repairs you say are bs will last. I have a feeling that it will allow the console to live long enough to actually develop a real bga problem so you actually aren't selling snake oil by then
Naked_Snake1995
Senior Member
My apologies mate, perhaps i misread or misunderstood, your post.
So you are mentioning that Reballing is still the legitimate repair for the PlayStation3, and what its all presented here about the NECs its nothing more than just Snake Oil, in the end.
Sent from my G8141 using Tapatalk
SEGA-CD
Forum Noob
I'm pretty sure he's speaking in defence of this thread and that the NEC caps are the issue.
Naked_Snake1995
Senior Member
Could be, its a 50/50%chance, every opinion its welcomed positive or contradictory, this its an open topic, everyone has they're own point of view for this issue.
Sent from my G8141 using Tapatalk
wrx884
Member
u really need to do the rest of the caps on ur console that hasn't really been fixed properly with it yet. ur console is a perfect candidate since it still shows issues that this thread is trying to explore.
Naked_Snake1995
Senior Member
Not really, the console still runs fine, one thing i didn't test is TLoU and GT6, after i replaced the Capacitor on the CELL side, the previous test was only on the RSX Side.
But again, as i have a PS3 Slim in my possession, i don't feel the need to torture my Holy Grail of the Collection, aside of running it everyday to make sure nothing is wrong with it, i am currently searching a G Model 40Gb to use it as my Guinea-Pig, these aren't such rarity, and they aren't really worth much, making it the perfect candidate.
Sent from my G8141 using Tapatalk
wrx884
Member
well ur not torturing it if u actually do fix it by replacing all the caps? i mean u need to back up this claim too and test those high demanding games on it.
Th3-J0k3r
Member
I have 3 phat ps3 that are ylod
Fix 2 and I hand you 1 for services rendered , would need to Check versions but can do later
Naked_Snake1995
Senior Member
@Fanhais its your ticket for TLoU and GT6 on the early 60Gbs,if i am not mistaken he was the very first and few people who did a full Tantalum replacement, and reported no Crashes.
Last time i test TLoU on a NEC Based System, more specifically a 2000 Slim, it didn't crash, but that also doesn't validate since the CELL its all Tantalum, only the RSX is NEC Based, but what i suspect, is that GT6 and TLoU are heavy CELL based titles, and with that immense workload, it crashes, but if my leads are true, then to avoid crashes only the CELL would need a NEC replacement.
What i fully advise, and should have mention it before, its to replace the Tantalums only on top, and use original NECs on the bottom, this will avoid the issue of placing jumpers all over the place, creating a internal bridge, and the bottom NECs will be actively cooled by the Fan, catch my meaning?
The Only hassle will be to remove thoes NECs with a heatgun to dislodge them, and resolder them back.
Sent from my G8141 using Tapatalk
Naked_Snake1995
Senior Member
Appreciate the offer mate, unfortunately i prefer not to touch systems other than mine, i am not really a repair shop, nor accept donations, but i always like to help with any valid information, out of my own pockets for the good of the repair.
Sent from my G8141 using Tapatalk
wrx884
Member
but we know ur own console has this issue, i understand someone else done it but since u haven't and we dont know if u have any other caps on the verge of failing, we wont know till u do it. kinda feel like ur tip toeing around wanting to do it urself kinda worries me u dont have total confidence in this fix?
Naked_Snake1995
Senior Member
Not really, i am leaving them at stock, at the moment, to see how much they are holding up, its nothing about being paranoid or something, relax.
I still didn't test it, after the CELL replacement, i might add one more barrier to the RSX as well later on, i am trying the combination i mentioned before, NECs at the bottom and Tantalums on top, still experimenting with them.
Sent from my G8141 using Tapatalk
wrx884
Member
If u want to keep them stock buy the new NEC tonkin caps then? not gonna lie u do sound paranoid lol or worried this may back fire on it? tho u have nothing to lose tho, if u do the tests its something u can throw back at old mate thats having a go at this fix and another tick for others to see this could be the real deal
Naked_Snake1995
Senior Member
A thing i have to lose its a Backwards Compatible Board, which trust me, in this cursed county they are bloody expensive, 200€ a pop, so this is why id rather test it on another NEC Based Model, such as the G Model, its the closest to a COK-002 Board. [emoji23]
Sent from my G8141 using Tapatalk
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