PS3 (Research/Experimental) - NEC/TOKIN Capacitors Replacement - YLOD

[ElGris]

I've read that someone fixed a RSX with artifacts by cleaning the die. Also you can see if some capacitor on the RSX pcb is in short. If some of them are in short, remove them with a flat screwdriver and test it.

I really doubt this has to do with the NEC replacement (actually it has nothing to do with it) and also we don't know, as you said, how was this console managed in the past years.

What I can say is that is really worthy repairing a BC like this, if you are a collector, or if you wanna make some good money with a few bucks. Seeing how much they cost on Ebay, fully working, it's another incentive to bring back to life these monsters.

CECHGs and Hs are very cheap where I live though. You have there a nice RSX replacement.

 

[NSC-Modz]

Hello guys

I see that a lot of people's uses to many 470uF Tantal capacitors.

I just ask my self, if this is really necessary?

A single NEC on the Fat has 1200uF right?
So two NEC's has 2x 1200uF = 2400uF

So there are always 2 NEC's Up & Down on the RSX/CELL place, 2 NEC's on the RSX and 2 on the CELL side. All together 4 NEC's on the CPU and 4 on the RSX.

When you install 4 Tantal's with 470uF on "one" NEC place, you gonna have at last 1880uF -> 4x 470 = 1880uF

Then you need to calculate again 4x 470uF if you install again 4x 470uF on the second NEC place.

All calculated together where 2 NEC's with (2x 1200uF) with a total from 2400uF was placed, you gonna have together 3760uF, 1880 + 1880 = 3760uF! This is 1360uF more as it should be!

In my eye's it's way to much, i just made for my next project my own plan.

Im gonna install on "one" NEC place 3x 470uf and 3x 330uF, at last it's gonna be exactly 2400uF just like it should be.

Here just some pics how im gonna do that as i have time, if one of you can test that faster then me, it would be a great help.

Like i told, as i got time, i will do that with a working PS3 just to test if all will run stable.

Im gonna use the tantals with 6.3v, i know i could use 2.5v, but 6.3v will last longer.

If one of you likes to test it, it would be nice if you can tell us how it worked.

Have a nice time, and thank you all.

To be continued...

NSC

 

[ElGris]

@NSC-Modz Hey man, just to add something that happened to me, once I tried 3 tantalums (470uf x 6.3v) per NEC on both RSX and CELL on a CECHC. The PS3 didn't have problems until I tested TLOU, it gave a shutdown after 5 minutes in the game, when everyone is scaping and there're a lot of NPCs on screen. I then had to add one more tantalum per NEC, but just on the RSX, and didn't have any problem since then. This is the strongest proove that I have that you really need to use 4 (at least) per NEC. I don't know about capacitances, since I only tried 470uf. pics of the mobo: https://imgur.com/a/5iXe6uS

Since NECs are electrolitic, and tantalum are not, and seeing how much they used on the 3xxx and 4xxx models, which are just a few, this tells me that this has to do with the amount of current and voltaje the original RSX use, in their different variants on fatties, 90nm, 65, etc.

I'm just with the people that used the recommended amount of capacitors just to avoid a future problem on them due being so on the limit with the number of them.

Would be nice to see if someone really knows how the RSX manage its power through NECs, since they're spark plugs to me. I know, more or less how a capacitor works, and why it's is used, and I think using more of them just will help to stabilize the wave signal on the RSX, which is what we need to care about.

 

[NSC-Modz]

@NSC-Modz Hey man, just to add something that happened to me, once I tried 3 tantalums (470uf x 6.3v) per NEC on both RSX and CELL on a CECHC. The PS3 didn't have problems until I tested TLOU, it gave a shutdown after 5 minutes in the game, when everyone is scaping and there're a lot of NPCs on screen. I then had to add one more tantalum per NEC, but just on the RSX, and didn't have any problem since then. This is the strongest proove that I have that you really need to use 4 (at least) per NEC. I don't know about capacitances, since I only tried 470uf. pics of the mobo: https://imgur.com/a/5iXe6uS

Since NECs are electrolitic, and tantalum are not, and seeing how much they used on the 3xxx and 4xxx models, which are just a few, this tells me that this has to do with the amount of current and voltaje the original RSX use, in their different variants on fatties, 90nm, 65, etc.

I'm just with the people that used the recommended amount of capacitors just to avoid a future problem on them due being so on the limit with the number of them.

Would be nice to see if someone really knows how the RSX manage its power through NECs, since they're spark plugs to me. I know, more or less how a capacitor works, and why it's is used, and I think using more of them just will help to stabilize the wave signal on the RSX, which is what we need to care about.

The way you did is just great, i think to much will just not work like it should work, we need more people's that does some tests, just so we gonna have a successful job.

Im gonna test it like on my plan on the top from the RSX, with 3x 470uF and 3x 330uF to replace two NEC's.

Should it not work, I'll go for 6x 470uF

Im really curious to test that all.

Greetings
NSC

 

[demetris]

Guys, guys, guys, as you know fundamentally capacitors have a -/+ value to their capacitance. I always measure to be just a little over preferably the 1200uf and it has never failed me this method. I always add ceramic capacitors when i am close but still far from the 1200uf on every tokin.
If you add the correct amount and you still had an issue then your faulty capacitor was in the other side that's why it didn't work with the 3 and then it did when you add another.
Now the faulty one acts as a bridge so leave it be.

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[sandungas]

@NSC-Modz for the calculations you need to count the tokins of the other side of the motherboard as connected together
In few words, for the old PS3 models you have 4800uF for RSX and another 4800uF for CELL
We was talking abut it in the first pages of the thread
https://www.psx-place.com/threads/t...replacement-ylod-fix.25260/page-6#post-195624

I even made a cool "cutted view" drawing of the motherboard, all that VIAS (like copper tubes) transfers the electricity (and heat) very well from a side of motherboard to the other side

*This is why i think that the temperature in a side of the motherboard should be pretty much the same temperature at the other side... there is a lot of metal connecting both sides together
*And why i insisted several times that doing a 50/50 replacement doesnt have much sense... i would do 100/0 (all the tokins for RSX first)... and then 100/100 (all the others for CELL next)

 

[ElGris]

Guys, guys, guys, as you know fundamentally capacitors have a -/+ value to their capacitance. I always measure to be just a little over preferably the 1200uf and it has never failed me this method. I always add ceramic capacitors when i am close but still far from the 1200uf on every tokin.
If you add the correct amount and you still had an issue then your faulty capacitor was in the other side that's why it didn't work with the 3 and then it did when you add another.
Now the faulty one acts as a bridge so leave it be.

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Different types of capacitors work in different ways. You aren't suppose to mix electrolitic and tantalum capacitors in the same circuit, even if the circuit in this case is working as it should, you have, in this case the RSX, a different waveform for its correct operation. You see, ceramic, tantalums and electrolitic capacitors can have the same "size" but internally they work in different ways, and can give you different results, depending of what are you managing, in this case the energy for a graphic chip. You can see this by using a oscilloscope.

Capacitors are there for giving the same quantity of voltage to a circuit at any times, stabilize the circuit gauge. And since we don't know if the RSX cares about this "that" much, we should put just one type of capacitors to avoid adding a different type of waveform to the RSX circuit. And I repeat, it wouldbe nice to see how much the RSX (and CELL) needs a special type of waveform in its voltage to work correctly. We know tantalum capacitors are the best option since they use them on newest PS3.

 

[NSC-Modz]

@NSC-Modz for the calculations you need to count the tokins of the other side of the motherboard as connected together
In few words, for the old PS3 models you have 4800uF for RSX and another 4800uF for CELL
We was talking abut it in the first pages of the thread
https://www.psx-place.com/threads/t...replacement-ylod-fix.25260/page-6#post-195624

I even made a cool "cutted view" drawing of the motherboard, all that VIAS (like copper tubes) transfers the electricity (and heat) very well from a side of motherboard to the other side

*This is why i think that the temperature in a side of the motherboard should be pretty much the same temperature at the other side... there is a lot of metal connecting both sides together
*And why i insisted several times that doing a 50/50 replacement doesnt have much sense... i would do 100/0 (all the tokins for RSX first)... and then 100/100 (all the others for CELL next)

Great done, and your right about that all.

 

[NSC-Modz]

Different types of capacitors work in different ways. You aren't suppose to mix electrolitic and tantalum capacitors in the same circuit, even if the circuit in this case is working as it should, you have, in this case the RSX, a different waveform for its correct operation. You see, ceramic, tantalums and electrolitic capacitors can have the same "size" but internally they work in different ways, and can give you different results, depending of what are you managing, in this case the energy for a graphic chip. You can see this by using a oscilloscope.

Capacitors are there for giving the same quantity of voltage to a circuit at any times, stabilize the circuit gauge. And since we don't know if the RSX cares about this "that" much, we should put just one type of capacitors to avoid adding a different type of waveform to the RSX circuit. And I repeat, it wouldbe nice to see how much the RSX (and CELL) needs a special type of waveform in its voltage to work correctly. We know tantalum capacitors are the best option since they use them on newest PS3.

Thank you so much for your explaining, now i feel stupid ^^

But ofcourse it makes sense

Im always willing to learn more, so you guys think 4x 470uF everywhere is just stable and perfect for the Fat Editions?

You guys tell me what's the best, and I'll do a great clean work

Greetings
NSC

 

[ElGris]

Don't say that haha, we all are here to share knownledge and learn, and I'm not even an expert on this, just sharing what I know lol.

I tried 4 per NEC on RSX and 3 per NEC on CELL and the system ran just fine without any issue. I think that's the minimum since using just 3 per NEC on RSX will cause a YLOD in no time.

P/S: I'm using those yellow tantalum that I bought from China, but now that I did some measurements, they are 470uf but the multimeter says +-350uf.. I did the test with a tantalum extracted from a 4xxx mobo that is 470uf and my multimeter says it is more than 500uf. So it seems that I have low quality tantalums..

Until now I had no problems with them though.

I think the best way to test this type of repairs is to use the console under heavy situations, with exclusive Sony games like TLOU, Uncharted 2 or 3, Gran Turismo.. and test it good.

 

[demetris]

Different types of capacitors work in different ways. You aren't suppose to mix electrolitic and tantalum capacitors in the same circuit, even if the circuit in this case is working as it should, you have, in this case the RSX, a different waveform for its correct operation. You see, ceramic, tantalums and electrolitic capacitors can have the same "size" but internally they work in different ways, and can give you different results, depending of what are you managing, in this case the energy for a graphic chip. You can see this by using a oscilloscope.

Capacitors are there for giving the same quantity of voltage to a circuit at any times, stabilize the circuit gauge. And since we don't know if the RSX cares about this "that" much, we should put just one type of capacitors to avoid adding a different type of waveform to the RSX circuit. And I repeat, it wouldbe nice to see how much the RSX (and CELL) needs a special type of waveform in its voltage to work correctly. We know tantalum capacitors are the best option since they use them on newest PS3.

No offense man but you don't know what you are talking about
First of all Ceramics are not electrolytic!
Second they act as a safety measure to uf fluctuations since they are not overly temperature affected as tantalums, so they can keep the uf at stable rate.
Third i am talking about a truely tested and fully working method i deviced. But as always you can do whatever your brain allows you to I won't try to prove to you anything.

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[pure3d2]

I've read that someone fixed a RSX with artifacts by cleaning the die. Also you can see if some capacitor on the RSX pcb is in short. If some of them are in short, remove them with a flat screwdriver and test it.

I really doubt this has to do with the NEC replacement (actually it has nothing to do with it) and also we don't know, as you said, how was this console managed in the past years.

What I can say is that is really worthy repairing a BC like this, if you are a collector, or if you wanna make some good money with a few bucks. Seeing how much they cost on Ebay, fully working, it's another incentive to bring back to life these monsters.

CECHGs and Hs are very cheap where I live though. You have there a nice RSX replacement.

The RSX is delidded so I don't think another die cleaning will do anything. I'll check the RSX PCB for any shorted caps tonight.

 

[ElGris]

No offense man but you don't know what you are talking about
First of all Ceramics are not electrolytic!
Second they act as a safety measure to uf fluctuations since they are not overly temperature affected as tantalums, so they can keep the uf at stable rate.
Third i am talking about a truely tested and fully working method i deviced. But as always you can do whatever your brain allows you to I won't try to prove to you anything.

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I didn't say ceramics are electrolitic, I said mixing electrolitics (NECs) with tantalum is not the best option since they're different, but that applies for what you do too. I'm not inventing anything here, and as I said, I'm not an expert in electronics, but what I know, if you read carefully what I wrote, is that different types of capacitors give different types of waveforms in a circuit, and since we don't know how really the RSX works on this aspect, it would be safer and recommended to work with only one type of capacitors. The system will run fine mixing different types of capacitors since many others tried those big electrolitic ones and the console booted up, but which is the reability of all of this? Don't say adding ceramic capacitors to match the original specs is the safer way because is not, you don't have prove of this, and the direct replacement for NECs are indeed tantalums, since they're used on later models.

You can add whatever you want to the mobo, but don't recommend this as a solution. It's not, let's say, proffesional.

 

[demetris]

When heat goes up, uf goes down.
These are not here to give anything but to fine-tune the flow and maybe just maybe is more professional as you think it is

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[Dariush Aghaee]

Hey guys
I just want to share my opinion about the capacitors here.
I actually want you guys consider 2 things
1. The amount of uF in a capacitor in a circuit is calculated and designed by an engineer and you should not change it during repair job. Because that capacitor works as a part of a system (for example filtering system) if you change it, it could result in a change in the behavior of the whole system.

2. Electronic components always have an amount of "Tolerance" that is always considered while designing circuits.

I think the statement "more uF = more stable" is totally wrong.

 

[NSC-Modz]

Hey guys
I just want to share my opinion about the capacitors here.
I actually want you guys consider 2 things
1. The amount of uF in a capacitor in a circuit is calculated and designed by an engineer and you should not change it during repair job. Because that capacitor works as a part of a system (for example filtering system) if you change it, it could result in a change in the behavior of the whole system.

2. Electronic components always have an amount of "Tolerance" that is always considered while designing circuits.

I think the statement "more uF = more stable" is totally wrong.

That's exactly what me and my uncle says, my uncle is engineer and he knows what he says, i know also very good what i say, but he knows better... since i was a kid, i was working around with him, that's why i am like i am, a small McGiver ^^

The capacitors "farad capacity" should "not" be changed, the only thing you can change, is the voltage.

If you change the capacity, you gonna have an unstable system.

And if you take a capacitor with a lower voltage, it will get damage faster.

If a capacitor with 1200uF / 2.5v was working on a 2.5 volts line, and you like to replace it because it was damaged or what ever, then you can take a new one that has also "1200uF" but let's say with 6.3v.

The voltage from a capacitor can be higher as the current is, that means just, it can handle also higher voltages, and the other great thing is also, it will run cooler because it's made to work also with 6.3v as only with 2.5v

Im going try to explain it better...

Let's say the Original NEC with 1200uF / 2.5v was working exactly on 2.5v on a 2.5v line, when the system is working on 100% Load, it can happen that the capacitor gets hot with the time. But a capacitor that has 1200uF / 6.3v, will ofcourse also be able to work on a 2.5v line, and it will work better and cooler, because it can work with up to 6.3v.

The voltage from a capacitor means, how much volts it can take.

Other explain, lets say you install a capacitor with 470uF / 2.5v on a circuit where 6.3v volts is running, the capacitor with 2.5v will overheat with the time and get damaged because it was just made to work on max. 2.5v, but on a 6.3v line, it would get destroyed.

Ofcourse you should not make a big jump with the voltage, but if you take a capacitor that can work also with 6.3v on a 2.5v line, ofcourse it will also work better and cooler because it will not run that hot, as hotter it runs, as more uF (farad) it will lose.

That's why i still recommend a capacitor with 6.3v as just 2.5v.

Hope i could explain that good enough.

Greetings
NSC

 

[demetris]

I exhumed a dusty dead KTE board to see how sony replaced the Proadlizers by tantalum capacitors.
The tantalum capacitors are coupled with others additional ceramic capacitors between V+ and GND. I'm not seeing any aditionnal inductors/coils. That mount seems pure decoupling circuit as the example seen here : https://www.tokin.com/english/product/cap/proadlizer_closed_20140320/test2.html

This is for you @ElGris

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[squeept]

I think the statement "more uF = more stable" is totally wrong.

That's exactly what me and my uncle says, my uncle is engineer and he knows what he says, i know also very good what i say, but he knows better... since i was a kid, i was working around with him, that's why i am like i am, a small McGiver ^^

The capacitors "farad capacity" should "not" be changed, the only thing you can change, is the voltage.

Again, that's a rule of thumb to keep people from doing stupid things. For smoothing a DC voltage, though, it's perfectly fine to go OVER the amount the circuit was designed for (within a reasonable amount). While it certainly might not be "more stable" it's not hurting anything. If I need to give my credentials again, I'm a computer engineer.

This is for you

I don't think that means what you think it means. Physical location matters as much as any spec on a decoupling cap. Those aren't "mixed" with the purpose of the TOKIN caps - they're going to other parts of the circuit. They are not in parallel with the TOKIN caps in any meaningful sense even if the circuit diagram looks that way.

Paging @Moltiplier cause nobody listens to me.

 

[Dariush Aghaee]

NEC/TOKIn capacitors have 20% tolerance. Refer to this data sheet for more information

https://www.bulcomp-eng.com/datasheet/Tokin 0E907.pdf

This means the capacitance of a 1200uF NEC varies from 960uF to 1440uF. I think those tantalum caps have 10% of tolerance too. Anyway If the circuit works with 1880uF (4x 470uF) instead of 1440uF max means it just can handle it but this extra capacity may put your device under pressure?

About the voltage, it is common to use caps with two times bigger in voltage than the voltage of the line. I think the voltages of running CELL&RSX is about 1.2v? (correct me if I'm wrong) and sony used 2.5volt NECs. Surely we can use higher voltage caps but there is restriction in space as higher voltage caps are bigger caps.

 

[NSC-Modz]

NEC/TOKIn capacitors have 20% tolerance. Refer to this data sheet for more information

https://www.bulcomp-eng.com/datasheet/Tokin 0E907.pdf

This means the capacitance of a 1200uF NEC varies from 960uF to 1440uF. I think those tantalum caps have 10% of tolerance too. Anyway If the circuit works with 1880uF (4x 470uF) instead of 1440uF max means it just can handle it but this extra capacity may put your device under pressure?

About the voltage, it is common to use caps with two times bigger in voltage than the voltage of the line. I think the voltages of running CELL&RSX is about 1.2v? (correct me if I'm wrong) and sony used 2.5volt NECs. Surely we can use higher voltage caps but there is restriction in space as higher voltage caps are bigger caps.

Yes sure, if it's really working on 1.2v then a Tantal with 2.5v is fully enough.