PS3 (Research/Experimental) - NEC/TOKIN Capacitors Replacement - YLOD

[Pacorretaco]

Sony did not design a machine that would deliberately break in 150 days. In fact It is precisely them (and their greed) who had the most interest in the machine lasting as long as possible. If it's 5 years great, if it's 15 years even better. Why? Simple. They are a business, and that's their primary source of income. The machines themselves were and are sold at a loss. It's the user playing/liking and buying the games long term what makes them money. (Especially buying). Think about it. They don't want broken systems.

Welcome now to reality. They are indeed breaking in under 150 days... Yeah something went wrong in the design. Deliberate or not we don't know. But It wasn't known or intended by Sony. If anything, NVIDIA. (Or Quimonda/Infineon /Samsung)

The problem with reflows is... That we don't really know the ratio of failures under the chip vs on top of it. I wish I could know, but nobody really can.

What you are saying makes sense, but only within the assumption that you are really just dealing with BGA defects. Sure, a "proper reflow" would probably deal with a good percentage of them. Hopefully without destroying anything in the process.
But... It's not our case. (Ha, just ask Botakompong)

What will you do when a reflowed system fails again shortly after with the same fault? (And sure enough, you can expect it to fail again sooner or later)
Will you reflow again? Somehow implying that maybe the "BGA defect" wasn't totally fixed, or that it broke again, huh?
It's this uncertainty that makes the reflow not helpful at all.
It will not rule out the BGA defects. Or even broken traces or pads which are possible too.

Only a confident reball can do that. It's not just a matter of "lasting longer". It's about moving forward with the troubleshooting instead of being trapped in a downwards spiral that ends with another board biting the dust.

If and when the reballed machine gives RSX problems again (and it can)... Now you know that your RSX chip "bit the dust".
But not your board. The reball wasn't for nothing. The reflow can be.

 

[RIP-Felix]

Sony did not design a machine that would deliberately break in 150 days. In fact It is precisely them (and their greed) who had the most interest in the machine lasting as long as possible. If it's 5 years great, if it's 15 years even better. Why? Simple. They are a business, and that's their primary source of income. The machines themselves were and are sold at a loss. It's the user playing/liking and buying the games long term what makes them money. (Especially buying). Think about it. They don't want broken systems.

Welcome now to reality. They are indeed breaking in under 150 days... Yeah something went wrong in the design. Deliberate or not we don't know. But It wasn't known or intended by Sony. If anything, NVIDIA. (Or Quimonda/Infineon /Samsung)

If SONY didn't know they were incompetent. Here's how I know...

Pay special attention to the "No of Propagation Cycles to Failure" at around 14 minutes in. You don't become an electrical engineer with out learning about CAD modeling and simulation. No, they knew or should have known. But they are balancing other factors, like thermals and sound, manufacturing complexity, component cost and availability, initial sales goals, launch price, support and servicing, estimated costs of recalls, and so on. They had a strategy and reliability wasn't the most important factor, that's all. It rarely is.

 

[RIP-Felix]

What will you do when a reflowed system fails again shortly after with the same fault? (And sure enough, you can expect it to fail again sooner or later)
Will you reflow again? Somehow implying that maybe the "BGA defect" wasn't totally fixed, or that it broke again, huh?
It's this uncertainty that makes the reflow not helpful at all.
It will not rule out the BGA defects. Or even broken traces or pads which are possible too.

Only a confident reball can do that. It's not just a matter of "lasting longer". It's about moving forward with the troubleshooting instead of being trapped in a downwards spiral that ends with another board biting the dust.

If and when the reballed machine gives RSX problems again (and it can)... Now you know that your RSX chip "bit the dust".
But not your board. The reball wasn't for nothing. The reflow can be.

Let me flip the question around. How could you know it was the bumps?

Isn't that the problem, you can't distinguish between BGA or BUMPs if they tend to throw the same errors and cause the same YLOD? The only solution for bad bumps is to replace the RSX. But until you attempt a reball or reflow, you can't know it wasn't the BGA to begin with. If you're going to have to replace it you may as well try a reflow or reball first, just to rule the BGA out. Then at least you know if the bumps are okay before you throw away a working RSX.

 

[Dariush Aghaee]

Is it possible to replace a damaged RSX? I mean if you have a mobo which is dead but the RSX on it is ok, can we take the RSX and put it on another board with a broken RSX?
Thank you

 

[RIP-Felix]

Yes,. the RSX is interchangable. You can replace with the same manufacturing size without hardware modification. So you can replace a 90nm with another 90nm. If you want to put a 65nm or 40nm on a 90nm console you need some hardware modificatons and a special modchip for that. We're calling that a Frankenstein PS3 and it does work. They should be the most reliable BC consoles in the world. Sony did some offical refirbs using 65 and 40nm RSX's. That's how we learned it was possible. Some people were wondering why their PS3 was so cool, when everyone else's were overheating. That's when they got a nice surprise! It's quite rare to find them in the wild.

...but if you live in indonesia you can have the mod chip installed for $50, including the 40nm RSX. If you've never thougt about planning a vacation to Jakarta, I'll bet this will change that!

The 28nm SS RSX is not pin compatible with previous hardware. Also the CPU is married to the motherboard, so it's not swapable without some nasty hacking. And the 90nm, 65nm, and 45nm CELL CPUs are not pin compatible.

 

[Pacorretaco]

Let me flip the question around. How could you know it was the bumps?

Isn't that the problem, you can't distinguish between BGA or BUMPs if they tend to throw the same errors and cause the same YLOD? The only solution for bad bumps is to replace the RSX. But until you attempt a reball or reflow, you can't know it wasn't the BGA to begin with. If you're going to have to replace it you may as well try a reflow or reball first, just to rule the BGA out. Then at least you know if the bumps are okay before you throw away a working RSX.

Haha, you didn't flip my question. You just repeated it!

Yes, that's exactly what I was saying. The idea is to reball first to see if it's actually just the balls.
Reflow is not so definitive as reball.

Because it doesn't even have to be the famous "bumps". It can be an intermittent short circuit inside of the chip. Which responds to heat too. Somebody tested this!

What we are trying to do is to distinguish a good RSX from a bad RSX. Reballing is the standard way. Reflowing is unreliable and its "accessibility" means that the chance of going very wrong is very high.

Makes sense? Sorry if this was all confusing.

About the Sony blame thing... Yeah it's obvious now that mistakes were made somewhere. I really think it wasn't intentional. Your arguments make me think less and less of the problem actually being the balls then.
If indeed they knew, then they were happy with the simulated BGA endurance. And this wasn't 150 days. Meaning something "else" went wrong. Because it "is" 150day.

I want to think they just didn't do the simulation right if they did it. The video is from 2017 and they were in the early 2000, right after the RoHS ban. Maybe they just didn't have a good way to get accurate predictions like today. On not very known and tested solder. Who knows

 

[RIP-Felix]

...About the Sony blame thing... Yeah it's obvious now that mistakes were made somewhere. I really think it wasn't intentional. Your arguments make me think less and less of the problem actually being the balls then.
If indeed they knew, then they were happy with the simulated BGA endurance. And this wasn't 150 days. Meaning something "else" went wrong. Because it "is" 150day.

I want to think they just didn't do the simulation right if they did it. The video is from 2017 and they were in the early 2000, right after the RoHS ban. Maybe they just didn't have a good way to get accurate predictions like today. On not very known and tested solder. Who knows

What's funny is that you and I have come full circle back to this discussion...

The RSX goes through more thermal cycles than does the CPU, because of its use in game. These thermal cycles may have a smaller Delta T than the CPU cycles, but because they are so much more frequent and varied, they "aparantly" result in BGA defects more often.

Miniaturization of RSX and CPU manufacturing processes reduced heat the cooling system had to deal with. SONY also began using more power efficient fans on newer models, which draw less current, and reduce load/heat on the power supply. The case designs changed too, affecting the airflow characteristic inside the console. Fan curves are adjusted and calibrated per console revision, according to the design goals of the engineers who model and test the cooling system.

TL;DR = Hot running consoles will all die, there's nothing you or anyone can do to prevent it. All you can do is prolong the inevitable.

Spoiler

Engineers model BGA defects down to the number of thermal cycles and design cooling systems to achieve a balance between reliability and acoustics. Ostensibly, it would appear the initial design goal was to minimize noise. In truth, they were balancing between reliability, earnings potential, and public perceptions. The fan curves were adjusted to allow the chips to run hot AF before ramping up. SONY knew doing this would reduce reliability and did so anyway. Why?

1. People will just complain the console is noisier, instead of thanking them for reliability.
   
2. It's in SONY's financial interest only if the console makes it past the warranty period. Since there is a huge R&D investment up front and uncertainty in earnings, the incentive is to strike an aggressive balance early (kill early consoles just after the warranty period, make them buy another while they are still being sold). Mid-life design revisions can incorporate newer technologies to improve reliability. Part of that is identifying what breaks, that you couldn't predict. Some of that may be readjusting the reliability to earnings goals.
3. Market research, support analytics and future costs factor into setting a "reasonable" warranty period. If it's too short customers may not buy, especially if the company has a reputation for bad quality or reliability. So the length of support needs to be long enough to reassure the buyer, but not so long it eats into earnings. Also, if they can't maintain the perception of having reliable products, the company at least needs to appear to be improving it. This is difficult to gauge and is readjusted mid life to appease critics and stave off law suits.

Basically, SONY (or any company for that matter) is concerned with much more than a reliable product. Most of those concerns are more important to whether or not they survive as a company. Reliability is given only as much attention as required, unless they value it as a core goal of the company. Nintendo seems to respect this value more than MS and SONY do. Their formula has been to emphasize quality games over graphics, which may also equate to better reliability. That has been working out for them quite well. While MS and SONY chase graphics and produce expensive consoles that only last a few years, Nintendo will sit back business as usual and wait for them to ruin their reputations.

PC users can chase graphics, knowing that their investment in new PC hardware doesn't also mean that their game library is locked to the old hardware. Console users are reliant on the console manufacturer to forward port titles or make the next console backwards compatible. Otherwise their entire game library is reliant on their PS3 lasting forever. If SONY doesn't provide PS3 backwards compatibility on PS4, 5 and every console thereafter, then they loose access when the console dies. Chasing graphics shortens this timetable from decades to years.

The other thing to remember is that Nintendo is not going to chase graphics and risk everything following MS and SONY down a reputation destroying rabbit hell to hole. SONY and MS's gaming divisions could go bankrupt and the parent company would be fine. Nintendo would be ruined. So you can see why Nintendo needs to value it's reputation more.

As for putting a 65nm RSX on an BC model, that would only work if EVERYTHING were the same. I would be flabbergasted if nothing were different. Usually the voltages are reduced on smaller manufacturing processes. That would need to be reduced. If it's all handled onboard the chip, fine, but something tells me that's not likely.

That's when you and I first met and squeept showed me the frankenstrin mod. Feels like deja vu!

Yes, that's the seed of deniability.

SONY & MS: "The RoHS made us switch to Lead-Free...Boo-Hoo-Hoo"

Nintendo:

Don't believe it. They were given plenty of time to do the necessary testing and get it right. And BTW the PS4 suffers from the same problem and so too will the PS5 (mark my words).

 

[RIP-Felix]

I dont know what an ESR is or what 12x4.5mOhm means. Could you link the capacitor for sale that should work better for the ps3? And yeah I'll the syscon thing first.

Yeah, I linked a few pages back. I recommend the Tantalums. Howvever I do like the caps this guy used...

 

[Dariush Aghaee]

Yes,. the RSX is interchangable. You can replace with the same manufacturing size without hardware modification. So you can replace a 90nm with another 90nm. If you want to put a 65nm or 40nm on a 90nm console you need some hardware modificatons and a special modchip for that. We're calling that a Frankenstein PS3 and it does work. They should be the most reliable BC consoles in the world. Sony did some offical refirbs using 65 and 40nm RSX's. That's how we learned it was possible. Some people were wondering why their PS3 was so cool, when everyone else's were overheating. That's when they got a nice surprise! It's quite rare to find them in the wild.

...but if you live in indonesia you can have the mod chip installed for $50, including the 40nm RSX. If you've never thougt about planning a vacation to Jakarta, I'll bet this will change that!

The 28nm SS RSX is not pin compatible with previous hardware. Also the CPU is married to the motherboard, so it's not swapable without some nasty hacking. And the 90nm, 65nm, and 45nm CELL CPUs are not pin compatible.

Are there any brand new RSXs? or just renewed?

 

[Dariush Aghaee]

Here about the SONY blame and how stupid they are

 

[Pacorretaco]

Don't believe it. They were given plenty of time to do the necessary testing and get it right. And BTW the PS4 suffers from the same problem and so too will the PS5 (mark my words).

Hahaha, oh yeah, this is all a bit repetitious. This thread wouldn't be 200 pages long if it weren't for all the repetition. But there is some progress. Even if it's 3 steps forward and 2 back.

Again... I don't think you are being objective with this. We can be happy because the problem was actually solved. No, the ps4 does not have this problem at all. This is self evident. They are all lasting way longer than 150 days.

Youtube is flooded with ps4 hdmi port replacement. Why? Well sure there may be more than one reason but, for one it's because these machines are normally not failing in their infancy like the old ps3.
So things like the humble HDMI port have their chance of failing first. Instead of something terrible inside the board. This being a common fault is a victory in terms of board reliability.

Of course there is still some percentage of the other failures, but I think we can agree it's not nearly as much. I wish I had the numbers but it could be 100 times less. You can have a ps4 without knowing what the BLOD or a APU is.
Hopefully the ps5 is like that too, but of course it's soon to tell. I'm not sure It will either.

But our funny problem was already pretty much solved in the ps3 days too.
It was starting with the newer fat models. Whatever they did or changed increased reliability considerably compared with the old fat models. And... No it wasn't better temperatures. The temperatures were worse but the machines last longer. Certainly more than 150 day.

Here about the SONY blame and how stupid they are

I should remind you that my friend NSC is quite crazy hehehe.
Yeah that's just suboptimal manufacturing. Not necessarily a design problem. Actually slightly convex is desirable, not too much of course.

 

[RIP-Felix]

E-bay is full of BLOD PS4's. Are they all APU solder defects? No. But the same is true for PS3 YLOD. What about the percentages? Only SONY knows. But there are reason why we "might" get the sense PS4 is more reliable...

1. PS4 is newer and hasn't had as much time to fail.
   
2. PS4 isn't used in DATA farms and super computers for industry like the PS3 was. So more PS3's were sold to users requiring reliability and who would torture the consoles to death soon after release. That led to the discovery sooner and more media coverage (nobody whines more than big companies after loosing data) - especially since the XB360 had just been recalled for the same reason. Basically our sense of how many PS4's vs PS3 suffering from this problem is subjective and influenced by factors that have noting to do with the real failure rate numbers. Numbers only SONY has access to. And they have learned to keep that information quiet.
3. Psychology, specifically confidence bias. We don't want to entertain the though that our precious PS4/5 is a ticking time bomb. Just like we don't like to think the same about our spouse's arteries. Ever heard of the saying, "Nothing is certain but death and taxes?" Well it's true for video game consoles too. Once something you can't fix breaks, it dies. Reballing ICs is usually where technician draw the line.

I refuse to be bamboozled by SONY's assurance that they have figured out a way to cheat physics. Hot chips get hot. That's what they do. When 2 materials with different coefficients of thermal expansion heat up they expand at different rates, which places strain on the connection between them. Given enough thermal cycles they will deform, break, and stop working. Unless they have stopped using FC BGA package (which they haven't), then they will still die.

And that bring us back to CAD simulation and estimating the cycles to failure. How would you prioritize these factors?

• Reliability = Mean # of Cycles to Failure (which is affected greatly by thermals)
• Acoustic Noise = Thermals. Higher fan speeds mean lower thermals and more reliability, but also more noise. People are fickle! They don't like noisy consoles that distract them from enjoying the quiets suspenseful moment of the movies or video games. They won't thank you for making the console more reliable, they'll criticize you for the fan noise! Case in point, people are already complaining about coil whine on the PS5! It's so quiet that they can hear coil whine. They're looking for a reason to complain, so you need to be extra careful not to give them one! Critics influence other's buying decisions!
  
• Bill of Materials (BOM) = Higher quality materials have longer lifespan at a higher cost.
• Warranty Replacement & Repair = 1 year is a standard minimum for items like this. It cost a company ALOT of money to employ and retain skilled technitions. However, this service is a guarantee that bolsters consumer confidence and makes them feel comfortable paying large sums of money for a product.
  
• Public relations: A long warranty and great customer service reputation directly affects how much money people will pay for a console, which is important if your planning a price point at $300 vs $500 or even $600.
• Liability - If you skimp too much on the BOM and engineer too little reliability, then you may become liable for a defective/dangerous product that must be recalled. Recalls are expensive, not to mention lawsuits and settlements.
  
• Return On Investment (ROI) = Profits pay your employees, shareholders, and keep the company in business. They hedge against possible future losses. So you really need to maximize profits when you can to avoid going bankrupt if your next console isn't a commercial success. Your employees and their families are depending on you to keep the company in the black. You must maximize profits when you can, so you can take risk later and remain competitive

There are plenty of other factors, but let's just play with these. As a gamer and enthusiast here how I "wish" SONY could ballance these:

1. Reliability
2. BOM (towards better parts)
   
3. Warranty Replacement & Repair
4. Acoustic Noise
5. Public relations
6. Liability
7. ROI

If you're SONY however, reality dictates a cautious business orientated perspective.

1. Liability (recalls are expensive)
   
2. ROI (gotta get paid)
   
3. Public relations (need to keep face)
   
4. Acoustic Noise (don't give em a reason to hate you, more than they already do)
   
5. Warranty Replacement & Repair (1yr minimum to convine them to pay $500)
   
6. Reliability (make it last 1yr minimum + some margin of error)
   
7. BOM (towards cheaper parts)

Those are the incentives. I didn't make the rules.

 

[Pacorretaco]

Well, in this case the point is that for SONY as a business, the number 1 priority (ROI) just happens to go together with "our" number 1 priority (Reliability)

This is not some random appliance that people buy once, and only buy again when the old one gets old or broken.

They actually make more money the longer the appliance lasts, because the money is in the games and services sold on top of it. So much so that they are happy to go overboard with the materials cost at the beginning if it means getting out there an impressive machine that will beat the competition and solid too. With the hopes that this risky aggressive move will pay off in the future. Also helped by the expectation of the reduced BOM in the newer cheaper models as technology improves. They were even more aggressive with the initial launch because at the time they were overconfident, rolling in the success of the PS2.

So the way I see it, the table of priorities is flipped.
Only arguable exception can be the acoustics. Yeah maybe they valued silent operation too much. But this is also not very clear, because I'm not convinced that the heat is actually to blame here.
You know how I like to edit the SYSCON fan curves right? (I wrote small guide in fan curve thread)
Well even myself think that the default SYSCON fan settings on the launch models are actually not that bad. I still edit them of course. But just because I can. I don't think they are so bad actually.

And you may think that I'm just defending Sony here for some reason or something but...

Spoiler: Secret stuff

I was an Xbox guy from the beginning.
The cheap 360 just won haha. It's no secret

 

[Pacorretaco]

PS4 is newer and hasn't had as much time to fail.

Well, we are getting old. The PS4 is 8 years old now. And I don't think very many ps4 users know what a BLOD even is. Sure ebay may look full, but might be because the demand for those didn't quite catch up either. So they keep stacking.

The "YLOD" and their fun stories became popular way sooner.
Look what I found from 2009 (3 years after launch, 2 in the UK):

The video is a gem, but I'm just pointing out its existence. Not really addressing the contents of it, which are priceless too haha.
I couldn't find a ps4 version of it.

 

[RIP-Felix]

This is not some random appliance that people buy once, and only buy again when the old one gets old or broken.

Yes, it is! And that's how Video games are perceived by the electrons industry and regulatory authorities - as toys. Because of this they do not recieve the same attention for safety and reliability as the automotive or military industries do. No even as much attention as other home appliances, like you water heater, dishwasher, oven, or washer/drier. In those cases ROI is aligned with safety, not necessarily with long term reliability. There's a reason my grandpa's refrigerator from the 1970's (old yellow) still runs and I'm on my 3rd "new" one in the last 15 years. The old saying, "they don't make em like they used to."

SONY's message to you when the console is out of warranty it the same as it has been since they changed their reputation in the early 90's. BUY A NEW ONE! My dad was duped by SONY because he was loyal to them in the 70s-80's when they were known for great quality and service. That changed in the 80's with deregulation. A concerted effort by the electronics industry as a whole lobbied hard to "protect their IP" by attacking the electronics repair industry. Instead of being required to sell/supply spare parts and repair manuals, they could use proprietary chips you cannot buy, place warranty labels to prevent routine maintenance like cleaning dust and replacing thermal paste, they can obfuscate part numbers by scrubbing chips and blobbing them with epoxy, hide the meaning of diagnostics codes through confidential documents, the list goes on. The point is they want all the control, so that you have to come to them for service, repair, and replacement. Why?

Money, of course!

No, our interests and SONY's are not aligned. That's what regulation is for. Sony, among others are staunchly against "right to repair" initiatives that would return us to an incentive structure that realigns our interests. Where do you think a large portion of their profits go? Lobbying governments to keep that from happening, that's where! And we got here because video games are still seen as toys in the eyes of lawmakers. They are old and out of touch with technology. Big tech takes advantage of that. The problem is communicating the issue in terms they can understand...like having someone weld the hood of your car shut so you can't check/change your oil, top off your wiper fluid, replace the battery or alternator, etc. If car manufacturers tried to pull that, lawmakers would put a stop to it. But SONY can do the equivalent and more with your PS3 and no one cares but whiny little pee-ons like us.

Apple is worse. GoPro is the worst! Everyone is doing it! Ostensibly it's to protect their IP, in truth it's greed. It always is. Of course it is!

 

[RIP-Felix]

They actually make more money the longer the appliance lasts, because the money is in the games and services sold on top of it. So much so that they are happy to go overboard with the materials cost at the beginning if it means getting out there an impressive machine that will beat the competition and solid too. With the hopes that this risky aggressive move will pay off in the future. Also helped by the expectation of the reduced BOM in the newer cheaper models as technology improves. They were even more aggressive with the initial launch because at the time they were overconfident, rolling in the success of the PS2.

So the way I see it, the table of priorities is flipped.
Only arguable exception can be the acoustics. Yeah maybe they valued silent operation too much. But this is also not very clear, because I'm not convinced that the heat is actually to blame here.
You know how I like to edit the SYSCON fan curves right? (I wrote small guide in fan curve thread)
Well even myself think that the default SYSCON fan settings on the launch models are actually not that bad. I still edit them of course. But just because I can. I don't think they are so bad actually.

And you may think that I'm just defending Sony here for some reason or something but...

Spoiler: Secret stuff

I was an Xbox guy from the beginning.
The cheap 360 just won haha. It's no secret

They calculate all of this with the efficiency of a multinational conglomerate making billions of dollars a year. They have it down to a science. They tie into the warranty period and price calculations so as to ride the line between loosing customers and convincing them to buy a another one. In that video I posed before the OP said when his launch PS3 experienced a YLOD he bough a slim and transferred his saves. So I'd say they effectively identified the price point at which the PS3 needed to be in order to retain that customer. I guess he didn't wnat to pay SONY's repair service. I myself waited until the PS3 was $300 before buying, because I couldn't justify spending $600. Especially when I could just use my PS2 for those games. But you know who could justify paying $500-600? Sony fanatics and business looking to make supercomputers arrays! OtherOS was a clever strategy to make that gamble work. The PS3 is the most technologically advanced console ever released IMO. It was one hell of an accomplishment. That's not my complaint. I've come to love the console. But what I hate about it is BGA technology.

They could have socketed the RSX and CELL. If it added $20 to a $600 price tag, but made the PS3 as reliable as a N64, won't you pay extra? So ask why they didn't do that! Ask why they didn't for the PS4! Ask why they aren't for the PS5 and won't as long as they can get away with it!

You''re right @Pacorretaco, Initially the console was sold at a loss. Redesigns brought the cost down to a profitable point before the end of the product line. By then they had built a user base. You're right that they "may" not make money on launch consoles, the certainly didn't on the PS3. However, that's not always true. Also, that's not the only cost to consider. Servicing consoles under warranty is expensive, because it comes out of your own pocket. But not servicing consoles outside the warranty period! The customer pays to service after that. So the choice is this, buy a new slim model for $300 (which sony does make a profit on now) or pay $$$ to have your beloved BC launch mode repaired. They have you by the solder balls!

Now we get into the nitty gritty. They were chasing MS down the graphics rabbit hole to hell. Hell is hot, which is why they die a fiery death...see how that works? Nintendo didn't take the bait, proving there are different approaches to doing business. I have said this before and will say it again. Sony can take chances because they are diversified. The video game division could go bankrupt and they'd still have TVs, Movies, Music, and basically every other electronic device ever made to fall back on. Microsoft has windows. Video games are their side hassle.

It's different for Nintendo. They can't take chances like SONY and MS can. So their incentive are far more aligned with ours. They're more vulnerable to a PR nightmare and total recall. So reliability and good games (to make up for less powerful HW) are far more important to them than they are to SONY and MS. But even they are playing the "have it serviced by Nintendo authorized technician" game, same as everyone else. It's that profitable.

First they killed the secondary repair market. Now they are the only ones "authorized" to repair it. That's not by accident. We got here deliberately!

To drive the point home...

It's not specific to SONY, but this is a systemic problem resulting from deregulation. So it affects every sector of society. It's not just your video game console.

 

[Pacorretaco]

They calculate all of this with the efficiency of a multinational conglomerate making billions of dollars a year. They have it down to a science. They tie into the warranty period and price calculations so as to ride the line between loosing customers and convincing them to buy a another one. In that video I posed before the OP said when his launch PS3 experienced a YLOD he bough a slim and transferred his saves. So I'd say they effectively identified the price point at which the PS3 needed to be in order to retain that customer. I guess he didn't wnat to pay SONY's repair service. I myself waited until the PS3 was $300 before buying, because I couldn't justify spending $600. Especially when I could just use my PS2 for those games. But you know who could justify paying $500-600? Sony fanatics and business looking to make supercomputers arrays! OtherOS was a clever strategy to make that gamble work. The PS3 is the most technologically advanced console ever released IMO. It was one hell of an accomplishment. That's not my complaint. I've come to love the console. But what I hate about it is BGA technology.

They could have socketed the RSX and CELL. If it added $20 to a $600 price tag, but made the PS3 as reliable as a N64, won't you pay extra? So ask why they didn't do that! Ask why they didn't for the PS4! Ask why they aren't for the PS5 and won't as long as they can get away with it!

You''re right @Pacorretaco, Initially the console was sold at a loss. Redesigns brought the cost down to a profitable point before the end of the product line. By then they had built a user base. You're right that they "may" not make money on launch consoles, the certainly didn't on the PS3. However, that's not always true. Also, that's not the only cost to consider. Servicing consoles under warranty is expensive, because it comes out of your own pocket. But not servicing consoles outside the warranty period! The customer pays to service after that. So the choice is this, buy a new slim model for $300 (which sony does make a profit on now) or pay $$$ to have your beloved BC launch mode repaired. They have you by the solder balls!

Now we get into the nitty gritty. They were chasing MS down the graphics rabbit hole to hell. Hell is hot, which is why they die a fiery death...see how that works? Nintendo didn't take the bait, proving there are different approaches to doing business. I have said this before and will say it again. Sony can take chances because they are diversified. The video game division could go bankrupt and they'd still have TVs, Movies, Music, and basically every other electronic device ever made to fall back on. Microsoft has windows. Video games are their side hassle.

It's different for Nintendo. They can't take chances like SONY and MS can. So their incentive are far more aligned with ours. They're more vulnerable to a PR nightmare and total recall. So reliability and good games (to make up for less powerful HW) are far more important to them than they are to SONY and MS. But even they are playing the "have it serviced by Nintendo authorized technician" game, same as everyone else. It's that profitable.

First they killed the secondary repair market. Now they are the only ones "authorized" to repair it. That's not by accident. We got here deliberately!

To drive the point home...

It's not specific to SONY, but this is a systemic problem resulting from deregulation. So it affects every sector of society. It's not just your video game console.

Well, even in the video there is a Sony guy saying that the machine would last 10 years. And I don't think he was lying, do you? Of course we all know how that ended, but do you really think he was deliberately saying something known by them to be false? No. They really thought the machine would last 10 years or more.
If they're failing in under 150days, it's because something went really wrong. Something they didn't predict.

But why? Of course as you say, it's all about the money. It's the only reason for them as a business. Just a different business model as the ice cream machines. The key difference is that Sony does not make money on broken machines. They do not make 25% of their revenue on repairs. In fact they were probably "losing" money on repairs too.

If the warranty had ended, you were given the option of paying 128£ to Sony for a solution or official refurbished machine.
Even you are wishing today that you could do that, even today. You also know what was inside those refurbished models. Do you really think they were making their money here? Cashing in after their nefarious plan?


No, they just were affected by the problem just as much as the users.

Selling consoles and repairing them was just a boring part of their business. Precisely the part that they disliked the most.
At this early time of failure, there was no slim to be sold yet actually. And even with the much cheaper cost to them, they still prefer to pass the savings to the potential buyer and lower the retail price. Of course they want people to buy, but their main interest is not taking their money directly from that purchase.
The profit margins from the hardware sales were always small, if any.

 

[patricksouza472]

Welcome!

First would you pleas provide us with a few things?

1. Model of PS3 (you can find this on the back sticker. It should say something like CECHA01 for a Phat model, or CECH2001A for a slim model, etc.)
2. Was the console sealed? Do you know if has been serviced before? What's the history of the console? If you don't know, when you opened it up, did it look like it had been worked on before? Most importantly, does it look like it has been reflowed before? Is there any flux residue in the RSX region?
   
3. Type of YLOD (the original one, before you attempted this mod). For example, from when you press the power button to hearing 3 beeps, how much time elapses? less than a second, 1-2s, 2-10s, 10s-5mins, randomly occurs, only in games, or only in intense games.
4. The model number of the capacitors you used (or a link to the product you bought if you don't know).
5. Use a multimeter set to resistance and measure the resistance bewteen +/GND rails. Please provide us the RSX and CPU side resistances. This is kind like a PS3 health meter...
   • 0-1 Ohm = Dead or nearly so. You may have a Short (double check soldering). The RSX/CPU could be dead. Or there could be defective BGA affecting the resistance. Flux residues reduce this resistance, so be sure to clean it off thoroughly!
     
   • 1-2 Ohms = Not good, but not dead yet.
   • 2-3 Ohms = Normal wear and tear, nothing out of the ordinary.
   • 3+ Ohms = Very Healthy, like new!

As others mentioned you need to use a larger bridge wire. The NEC/TOKINs are internally connected from positive rail to positive rail, and that is where all the current that feeds the processors goes. When you use a thin wire, you are basically forcing all that current through a tiny pipe. It'll burst (literally vaporize) and cause an instant YLOD like you described. Or it's also possible you bridged the +/GND rails. So double check your soldering for a short. Be sure to check the Resistance from #5 above before and after so you know if your work is good.

Okay, and now for the truth. Youtube is currently behind on the state of this fix. Everyone was too excited by the "narrative" that this is the true problem and reballing is a waste of money. "Haha! The truth has been the tantalums all along..." and so on. It's a great story that gets lots of clicks, likes, subscribers, and so on. Trubble is, it was a red herring (BS). It is in fact only going to work for a small percentage of YLODs and reballing is still needed something like 90% of the time. All that was discovered in this thread was another possible cause. One that accounts for maybe 3% of the YLOD out there. The reason the console works after installing the Tantalums, is the same reason it works after heating the caps. Thermomechanical reconnection of the microscopic BGA defect by warping the board. It will relax over the next 2 weeks and then the YLOD returns. It looks like you repaired the console, makes for a great video, and has a satisfying narrative - "Don't waste $$$ on reballing! Tantalum has been the problem all along!" But they were wrong. The video doesn't show what happens to the console 2 weeks later. You don't get the full picture until it happens to you!

...And that's what brings you here!

So, where do you go from here? To know if your console can be fixed using this method, you need to check the SYSCON error codes to diagnose the problem first. I made a windows tutorial here. If your NEC/TOKINs need replaced you'll get a 1002 error. If you need a reball, you 'll get a 3034. It does get more complicated than that, but those are the basics. If there is a 3034 in the errlog, then even if you fix the tantalums the YLOD will return. Unless the console has been reflowed previously. It's possible the reflow fixed the 3034 and we are just seeing an old error in the log. So this is why we need to know the console's work history.

I went through some pages here to find the info I posted about my console. CELL is at 3.1 ohm (like new) and RSX 2.1 ohm, so it's mostly to the bad side than the good side on the scale. I will use until it dies anyway but I'm already testing some boards to find a good RSX. How do I check resistance on slim boards?

 

[Pacorretaco]

I went through some pages here to find the info I posted about my console. CELL is at 3.1 ohm (like new) and RSX 2.1 ohm, so it's mostly to the bad side than the good side on the scale. I will use until it dies anyway but I'm already testing some boards to find a good RSX. How do I check resistance on slim boards?

Please relax. The ohms reading is just to check if there's a short in the core or not.
Anything over 1 ohm can be perfectly fine and means very little.

I have working machines with working RSX that read 0.9 ohms at some point. The reading also changes up and down from normal use...
Also a practically unused system (8 days use) which is working fine reads 1.4 ohms.

I also have systems (more than a few) which have confirmed RSX issues and read 2.9 and 3.1 ohms.

Unless it's a 0 ohm short, there's nothing to worry about. Stop with the voodoo please.
Enjoy it if it's working!

The RSX from a slim also can fail. The original 40nm frankenstein from Icferrum also developed RSX problems even after official sony 40nm swap (yes).

 

[vyktormvmpay25]

Yes kindly wired how sand inside is failing. If wrong diode, transistor, gate, nand/nor /xor part of ic programed to do something is failing after years of use, or as in ps4 many blod can not be recovered because APU is dead(not changed on time of thermal paste after warranty is out) . There I give another good example were you won't get high temperature, still eprom will fail and you may have to exchange mcu, eeprom. OLD cars after 7~8 years will fail to start because will forget key. Very often because of end of life cicle of that memory of ic programed to do his work.