PS3 (Research/Experimental) - NEC/TOKIN Capacitors Replacement - YLOD

Djudju said:
Hello everyone, I'll let you know about my nec tokin capacitor repairs. My repairs on my CECHL failed. By wanting to remove the 6.3 v capacitors to replace them with 2.5 v, it no longer worked. I soldered in different ways but nothing changed. After a while, I lost my patience and banged the soldering iron on the motherboard in anger, which caused her death again. So I gave up on this one. On the other hand, I still wanted to manage to repair a console with a Ylod (probably caused by the nec tokin) for my own satisfaction. So I bought another PS3 (CECHK) that I paid very cheaply, with the same symptoms. I proceeded as follows: 1. In order to know if the failure is really caused by the nec tokin, before any disassembly, I applied to the back of the console, a session of 3-4 min with a hair dryer to warm up the capacitors. She started. 2. Despite its instability, I took the risk of flashing it to install a CFW 3. I then installed ps3 tools to access the error log and the diagnosis displayed the well-known errors 1002x29 and 1001x2, at this time there was almost no doubt about the malfunction of the nec tokin. 4. I waited long enough to be sure the capacitors had completely cooled, causing the YLOD. I opened the console but unlike the previous console I didn't want to completely remove the nec tokin, because I'm convinced that even if they no longer have the same numbers of microfarads, they still have a little bit. So I proceeded to the "piggyback" technique 5. I started by placing 2 capacitors (470 uf 2.5 v) next to the first nec OE108 of the RSX and 2 capacitors (470 uf 2.5 v) next to the first nec OE128 of the CELL (top side of the motherboard of course ). I reassembled the console to test and there, no need for a hair dryer to start it, they are stable on the XMB. Second test I launch a game (fantastic four) and I leave the cinematics on a loop (30min), it is always stable. Third test, I launch Motorstorm and barely arrived on the menu, it cuts. So my capacitors are not enough. 6. I dismantle the console again, I realize that one of the capacitors at the level of the CELL was badly welded, I resolder it. I take this opportunity to add 2 other capacitors (470 uf 2.5v) next to the second nec tokin RSX. I reassemble the console and I always test with Motorstorm, I arrive at the menu, I start a game, it works, but unfortunately 3-4 minutes later, it goes out, damn it. 7. I disassemble again, and I decide to add 2 capacitors (bottom side of the motherboard) like this photo at the RSX. I also take this opportunity to add a capacitor (top side) on the second Nec tokin of the CELL. I reassemble the console to test and there drum roll. I run Motorstorm, start a game and leave the game on the graphics engine for 10, 20, 30, 40, 50 mins, no stability issues, yessss. Then I launch a slightly more graphically complex game (Assassin's Creed) and I played for more than 3 hours with no problems. I think I'm on the right track. I'll try with even more complex games like Uncharted 3. Anyway thank you all for your experience.
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Hello and welcome.

In the most polite way I can break this to you, your experiance with the YLOD is very common among those reading the initial tutorial on page 1 and not the rest of this thread. We now know that the "heat test" you performed with a hairdryer does not mean the caps are bad. If it does anything at all, it instead means you have a BGA/Bump defect requiring a reball, or RSX replacment (most likely).

Based on the 200+ pages worth of responses to this thread, I know that you next question will be... "Then why did the heat test work?" "And why did it become stable after adding more caps?"

We have answered those questions ad neaseum. Everything you need to know to catch up to speed can be read here.

In short, it due to Thermomechanical reconnection of the solder joint because of thermal warping. Basically the heat you applied bent the motherboard and the electrical connection is physically being held together by that pressure (like holding 2 wires together). Once that pressure relaxes over the next few weeks, the YLOD will return. Alternatively, heat can temporarily realign the molecular structure of microscopic traces inside the die itself which have become damaged by electromigration. This too, is temporary.

If instead you would rather I point you to only the relevent information to you, then the proper way to diagnose is to read the SYSCON errorlog. It will tell you if you have bad tokins or need a reball. Since your console is jailbroken and currently turns on, you can use PS3 advanced toolbox to dump the errorlog. Full instructions can be found in my tutorial here.

Be aware the YLOD usually returns within 2 weeks when the BGA is at fault. We call this a "false positive." Because it looks like the tantalums repaired the console. People get excited and post happy results. Then it fails again and everyone is sad and confused. Rinse and repeat for 200+ pages and you get some idea of why this thread is so long.

azlox9 said:
For North American folks here (or near the same contient), I spotted what looks like a good deal, a CECHE01 (BC model) with random YLoD, seems likely to be the capacitor : https://www.ebay.com/itm/393953372468
If someone purchase it, fix it, let me know !
Unfortunelatey the shipping to Europe cost more than the console, so I won't do it.
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TY, I snatched it up. It's a bit less expensive than most YLOD consoles. I'll try some tantalizers and see how it goes. I will of course diagnose the issue with an O-scope and read SYSCON errorlog to confirm tokins, before I massacre superior caps out of a blind attempt to guess the issue. As everyone should be doing at this point!
 
Djudju said:
Hello, no I don't have an oscilloscope so indeed it's a bit blind but not completely because as I said, before any manipulation, I test the hair dryer and if it starts there chances are it's a nec tokin problem. And then I run the syscon error log which gives me the codes 1001=CPU and 1002=RSX (in general)
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Excuse me. You posted this while I was writing my previous response.

Was that errorlog dumped before you started messing with the caps?
 
RIP-Felix said:
Hello and welcome.

In the most polite way I can break this to you, your experiance with the YLOD is very common among those reading the initial tutorial on page 1 and not the rest of this thread. We now know that the "heat test" you performed with a hairdryer does not mean the caps are bad. If it does anything at all, it instead means you have a BGA/Bump defect requiring a reball, or RSX replacment (most likely).

Based on the 200+ pages worth of responses to this thread, I know that you next question will be... "Then why did the heat test work?" "And why did it become stable after adding more caps?"

We have answered those questions ad neaseum. Everything you need to know to catch up to speed can be read here.

In short, it due to Thermomechanical reconnection of the solder joint because of thermal warping. Basically the heat you applied bent the motherboard and the electrical connection is physically being held together by that pressure (like holding 2 wires together). Once that pressure relaxes over the next few weeks, the YLOD will return. Alternatively, heat can temporarily realign the molecular structure of microscopic traces inside the die itself which have become damaged by electromigration. This too, is temporary.

If instead you would rather I point you to only the relevent information to you, then the proper way to diagnose is to read the SYSCON errorlog. It will tell you if you have bad tokins or need a reball. Since your console is jailbroken and currently turns on, you can use PS3 advanced toolbox to dump the errorlog. Full instructions can be found in my tutorial here.

Be aware the YLOD usually returns within 2 weeks when the BGA is at fault. We call this a "false positive." Because it looks like the tantalums repaired the console. People get excited and post happy results. Then it fails again and everyone is sad and confused. Rinse and repeat for 200+ pages and you get some idea of why this thread is so long.


TY, I snatched it up. It's a bit less expensive than most YLOD consoles. I'll try some tantalizers and see how it goes. I will of course diagnose the issue with an O-scope and read SYSCON errorlog to confirm tokins, before I massacre superior caps out of a blind attempt to guess the issue. As everyone should be doing at this point!
Click to expand...

No problems, luckily you'll be able to bring it back to a new life !
keep us updated.
I have 2 CECHC04 and a COK-002 that I can give it for free if you can pay the shipping (France to ? so may be expensive...), drop me a PM if you're interrested.
 
RIP-Felix said:
Hello and welcome.

In the most polite way I can break this to you, your experiance with the YLOD is very common among those reading the initial tutorial on page 1 and not the rest of this thread. We now know that the "heat test" you performed with a hairdryer does not mean the caps are bad. If it does anything at all, it instead means you have a BGA/Bump defect requiring a reball, or RSX replacment (most likely).

Based on the 200+ pages worth of responses to this thread, I know that you next question will be... "Then why did the heat test work?" "And why did it become stable after adding more caps?"

We have answered those questions ad neaseum. Everything you need to know to catch up to speed can be read here.

In short, it due to Thermomechanical reconnection of the solder joint because of thermal warping. Basically the heat you applied bent the motherboard and the electrical connection is physically being held together by that pressure (like holding 2 wires together). Once that pressure relaxes over the next few weeks, the YLOD will return. Alternatively, heat can temporarily realign the molecular structure of microscopic traces inside the die itself which have become damaged by electromigration. This too, is temporary.

If instead you would rather I point you to only the relevent information to you, then the proper way to diagnose is to read the SYSCON errorlog. It will tell you if you have bad tokins or need a reball. Since your console is jailbroken and currently turns on, you can use PS3 advanced toolbox to dump the errorlog. Full instructions can be found in my tutorial here.

Be aware the YLOD usually returns within 2 weeks when the BGA is at fault. We call this a "false positive." Because it looks like the tantalums repaired the console. People get excited and post happy results. Then it fails again and everyone is sad and confused. Rinse and repeat for 200+ pages and you get some idea of why this thread is so long.


TY, I snatched it up. It's a bit less expensive than most YLOD consoles. I'll try some tantalizers and see how it goes. I will of course diagnose the issue with an O-scope and read SYSCON errorlog to confirm tokins, before I massacre superior caps out of a blind attempt to guess the issue. As everyone should be doing at this point!
Click to expand...
Good evening, thank you for these very technical and relevant explanations.

where is the option to clear the error log, yet I had understood that it was possible to do this only by the adapter via python? Thank you
 
RIP-Felix said:
We now know that the "heat test" you performed with a hairdryer does not mean the caps are bad. If it does anything at all, it instead means you have a BGA/Bump defect requiring a reball, or RSX replacment (most likely).
Click to expand...
I dont agree completly on that statement, if we are assuming the heat applyed to the tokins affects the CELL/RSX located next to them... why we are discarding that the heat applyed to the tokins could affect the tokins themselfs ?

I mean... in the way you are explaining it it looks like the tokins are not affected by heat changes at all... and i dont think thats right

A different story is to try to understand how the heat affects this special "proadlizers", and not only under normal condition but also under "partial failure" conditions caused by the natural wearing of meaterials, random fails caused by small differences on the production, etc...
 
sandungas said:
I dont agree completly on that statement, if we are assuming the heat applyed to the tokins affects the CELL/RSX located next to them... why we are discarding that the heat applyed to the tokins could affect the tokins themselfs ?

I mean... in the way you are explaining it it looks like the tokins are not affected by heat changes at all... and i dont think thats right

A different story is to try to understand how the heat affects this special "proadlizers", and not only under normal condition but also under "partial failure" conditions caused by the natural wearing of meaterials, random fails caused by small differences on the production, etc...
Click to expand...
I was pretty sure we'd already debunked the heat effect on proadlizers… there were a few pages of back and forth a while ago.
 
The only way to understand what the possible issues could be is to read the SYSCON. I will be doing this next week, the more we understand about the error codes the nearer we will get to producing long term fixes on this magnificent console.

Sent from my SM-G988B using Tapatalk
 
Long story short, the "self healing" mechanism of these polymer caps vaporizes any failing or damaged areas to maintain all possible electrical characteristics within their tolerances as long as possible. There's nothing left to be "fixed" by heating them.

I'm late for bar trivia, I'll try to remember all the anecdotal stuff I've done to prove it to myself when I get back with a few beers in me.

It's tough for anyone to remember everything at page 245, especially for newcomers, and it's unfortunate that the original post never got updated or amended.
 
squeept said:
Long story short, the "self healing" mechanism of these polymer caps vaporizes any failing or damaged areas to maintain all possible electrical characteristics within their tolerances as long as possible. There's nothing left to be "fixed" by heating them.

I'm late for bar trivia, I'll try to remember all the anecdotal stuff I've done to prove it to myself when I get back with a few beers in me.

It's tough for anyone to remember everything at page 245, especially for newcomers, and it's unfortunate that the original post never got updated or amended.
Click to expand...

Without consulting my trove of a spreadsheet that lists highlights from this thread, the sort of it is that you found a console with genuine tokin fault and good BGA, blasted them with hot air at 120C and it it did nothing. If I remember correctly, it was while watching the waveform on the O-scope!

In short. It was thoroughly busted!
 
Bar trivia champs two weeks in a row!

@RIP-Felix I know I did that once, but once is an anecdote, and one source is still an anecdote no matter how many times I did it. Don't remember a specific temperature. But, I know it was on a scope verified bad set, which there are not a lot of in this thread, so there's some weight behind that result.

Before I started poking them with the scope and we had all the new diagnostics, I used to just reball the RSX as the first part of troubleshooting on any console. So, within a subset of reballed RSX consoles that were still not working, I was heating the caps sometimes to check if that worked, and it never did. I did that a few dozen times, I'm sure.

More recently, I've kept track of how much noise the caps let pass and how ugly the waveform looks. The amount of noise has only ever stayed the same or got worse after rework since I've been using my diagnostic sheets to track everything. I've had I think two sets now that looked okayish before hand that were 3034 and went full on bad TOKIN waveform after rework and switched over error codes. That's pretty damning, too.

Then there's just google. "self-healing polymer capacitor" will give you a few days worth of reading. Like this: https://www.vishay.com/docs/42106/faqconductivepolymercaps.pdf

I know that document is not about capacitors specifically the same as the TOKINs, but basically every question in the FAQ is "heat makes these suck worse, stay the same, or fail faster in every way."

The confusion clearly stems from the fact that standard electrolytic capacitors can be resurrected by heat. But those are an entirely different beast in every way.
 
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I'm open to argument, and always am, but I'll need anyone testing the hypothesis to show oscilloscope results now. We're well beyond speculation on page 246.

I have been buying a CECHG01 here and there now, looking for good 90nm donors and that nice cooler power supply when the price is right. Next time I run in to some scope verified bad caps, I'm happy to send one of those shit boards along if anyone wants to do some more strange experiments.

It's always good to have a second set of eyes on any problem, and people are rightly more apt to accept results when it comes from more than one source.
 
squeept said:
Before I started poking them with the scope and we had all the new diagnostics, I used to just reball the RSX as the first part of troubleshooting on any console. So, within a subset of reballed RSX consoles that were still not working, I was heating the caps sometimes to check if that worked, and it never did. I did that a few dozen times, I'm sure.
Click to expand...
But this same motherboards was fixed later by replacing the tokins ?, in other words... after that heating tests you got a confirmation that the tokins was the culprits ?
Otherway... if the motherboards never was fixed or/and the problem was located in other place (not the tokins) then we should not take in consideration the results of the heating tests

I was discussing this since the first pages of the thread (yeah, because sometimes it happens with electrolytic caps) but as something generic, lets say... if you force me to bet my life in between the 2 options "yes" or "no" to the question "the heat affects the tokins ?" i would say "yes"... because the option "no" looks very improbable
I was taking a read at the datasheet of the proadlizers, but mostly an overview and i dont remember, but probably they have a range of temperatures where they are stables recommended by the manufacturer. There is also the natural expansion (and later comptraction) or materials when are heated that could cause some effect in the performance
In the photos published here of some opened tokins it can be seen are made internally of some kind of "metal sheets", i guess are covered with a layer to isolate them electrically, but they "burns" at the corners (i guess because the isolation layer was burned) so it looks like the metal sheets have a tendence to "stick" with each others starting in the corners
Well... the natural expansion of materials (and later comptracion when returning to ambient) could "unstick" the metal sheets... or the other way aroun, maybe it "packs" them with more pressure... one way or the other that meal sheets could be affected by heat phisically deforming them temporally... and the consequences of that deformation... well... who knows. As said before this depends of the initial state of the tokin, we are not talking about new tokins never used before, we should assume all them are old

Btw, im not talking about fixing the tokins permanently just by heating them. I know there was some poeple along the thread argumenting this but thats a mistake... the heat only could change the tokins performance while are hot (but later when they returns to ambient temperature you are back at step one)

Is pretty much what was reported by a few people before in the thread when they was reporting the console was refusing to turn ON at the first try (on a cold day, etc...)... but they was able to turn it ON after a few tryes (after it was warmed up)
There was a post from someone (i dont remember, sorry) some months ago where it was reported this behaviour accuratelly and it was fixed by replacing the tokins, all i remember is personally i took that report as valid (not a false positive) because i liked how it was explained (actually, i remember i clicked in the "like" button of his post because it was one of the few times someone reported this behaviour so accuratelly, heheh)

Now, if you ask me if that reports was false positives... well... im not going to bet my life in it... i prefer to dont make my bet by now and keep the mind open :)
 
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sandungas said:
Is pretty much what was reported by a few people before in the thread when they was reporting the console was refusing to turn ON at the first try (on a cold day, etc...)... but they was able to turn it ON after a few tryes (after it was warmed up)
There was a post from someone (i dont remember, sorry) some months ago where it was reported this behaviour accuratelly and it was fixed by replacing the tokins, all i remember is personally i took that report as valid (not a false positive) because i liked how it was explained (actually, i remember i clicked in the "like" button of his post because it was one of the few times someone reported this behaviour so accuratelly, heheh)
Click to expand...

Maybe this post I made some time ago?
https://www.psx-place.com/threads/r...s-replacement-ylod.25260/page-232#post-323886

The E01 PS3 is running fine since then, at least with PS2 games.
But yes, when cold booting some random YLOD's occurred before replacing the RSX tokins,one or two YLOD's happened while playing NFS Underground 2, but disabling the upscaler solved the problem, after that it worked normally.

The A01 was more interesting, was YLODing constantly at boot, but I noticed that the time until the YLOD was not consistent, some time was instant, others a bit longer, then the PS3 logo appeared for a second, then it loaded the XMB fully and fail right after, until become stable on the XMB, but playing a game was a guaranteed YLOD, after replacing the CELL and RSX tokins not a single one YLOD, well, not related with tokins, this PS3 overheats quite fast.
 
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We've heard all the hypothese before. The rational for how heat could cause capacitance healing, or solder connection fatigue, seems plasable. That's why we went to such lengths to test those hypotheses.

I evaluated the available data (every user report on this thread and the SYSCON thread). I followed the progress of each console beyond the initial positive result and updated my spreadsheet with later reports, if they existed. Many didn't report back that the console was still working or failed. They just came in, said thanks, and left. Either that's because it kept working and they didn't have a reason to, or it failed and they gave up, or they just wanted to get it working so they could sell it working on ebay or a pawn shop...who knows. It could have been a genuinely bad tokin or a false positive. We don't know and can't assume.

The reason for that is that we didn't have the SYSCON errorlogs. Sure you can confirm bad tokins with an O-scope, but they're expensive.

After a statistical analysis of this collated data, I concluded that the only affect heat has on the tokins is to reduce their life expectatcy. The heat test supports reball theory, not the tokin hypothesis. Tokins do go bad, but nowhere near as often as the OP claimed (currently - the ratio may increase as they age). The type of YLOD matters (short is more associated with RSX, long could be tokins). And so on...

Anyway, we are long past such disscussions. We don't need to guess about the tokins anymore. The SYSCON codes liberated us from that mire.
 
lugh22 said:
Maybe this post I made some time ago?
https://www.psx-place.com/threads/r...s-replacement-ylod.25260/page-232#post-323886

The E01 PS3 is running fine since then, at least with PS2 games.
But yes, when cold booting some random YLOD's occurred before replacing the RSX tokins,one or two YLOD's happened while playing NFS Underground 2, but disabling the upscaler solved the problem, after that it worked normally.
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Thx, yeah, it was your description of the problems in your E01
lugh22 said:
E01:
Random YLOD's at boot, usually when the weather was cold, after 1~3 tries it worked fine, then started YLODing when playing PS2 games with upscaler on, turning it off solved the problem, the YLOD at boot became more frequent so I decided to replace the caps, after replacing it became more stable, but after 5~10 minutes playing TLoU YLOD's still occur, now with only 1001, PS2 games with upscaler on have no issue, I played more than an hour, here the full logs(1-4 after RSX tokins replaced, 5-31 before replacing)
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This report was a good proof because that problem (refusing to boot when the device is cold) usually happens in electrolitic capacitors... but in this case you fixed it by replacing the tokins (and the tokins are not electrolitic)

Thats the interesting detail because it means the tokins are sensitive to heat, and also, when you said that the problem became more frequent... thats exactly the same that happens with electrolitic capacitors
When a device start showing that problem (refusing to boot when cold) the problem increases exponentially in the next days, up to a point where it doesnt boots at all
You replaced the tokins before reaching that point where the device refuses to boot... but yeah... it was about to happen in the next days

The console is still working normally btw ? (this would be another proof that your problem was not caused by a bad BGA solder ball)
 
Here is evidence that a unexpected shutdown is fixed with new caps. Links below, sorry its in two parts and that it's quite long. In part one I show you the console shutting down when trying to play TLOU, the shutdown happened at the beginning and this was the third time it shut down. I got this on camera and in real time proceeded to piggyback 3 tantalum Panasonic capacitors, one on the RSX and two on the CPU. In part two you see the fix works with TLOU playing through chapter one with no issues.



Sent from my SM-G988B using Tapatalk
 
checha said:
I've stumbled across this pcb (PS3 TaPol Interface v2): https://oshpark.com/profiles/TimeWalker75a

It says it "Fixes issues in the original TCIB board design by Soulkilla"

What were the issues with the v1 by soulkilla?
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SoulKilla's board didn't connect the upper copper layer to the + rail of the tokin pad. You couldn't easily wick the solder up the edge. This design has a via to wick the solder up. But it's not enough IMO, it forces too much current through 2 small points. The plated edge should be longer.

I am considering opening my project back up, but with a disclaimer that OSH park's manufacturer is having issues making it properly. So to instead DL the gerber files and use PCBway or JLCPCB instead, who don't seem to have an issue manufacturing them.
 
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