PS3 Thoughs in Breaking through the PS3 HDD size limit (discussion, ideas)

Lambada

Lambada

Member
Hello fellow modders and devs.
I was inspired by @TnA ps2 threads about MX4SIO and the Open Broadband ideas discussion and brainstorming threads. I thought that maybe this could work in PS3 Scene as well. I Invite you all guys and specially @Berion, @aldostools, @bucanero, @OsirisX, @Evilnat, @deank, @Joonie, @STLcardsWS to join the discussion without compromise.

I am no expert so probably my line of though will have some errors, anyway, jump in and enter to discuss.

I was thinking today while I was remembering randomly of the PS2 HDD Structure.
It has different types of partitions:
- there is the Hdloader one
- there are game partitions for games like Final Fantasy XI and Resident Evil Outbreak
- partitions with the prefix "+" created by the user to store data, to be used with Homebrews like PGEN (Genesis Mega Drive emulator), SMS (Media Player) and so on.

The PS3 HDD size is limited by its GameOS constraints right?
- The official limit is 1TB (1024GB). Some people say that over 1TB it can work, and some say that the sweet spot would be before 1.5TB.
- I also read somewhere here that the HDD gets corrupted because of power loss, the OS can't recognize over 1TB and it won't scan and fix it correctly.
- Some say that you can use HDDs over 1.5TB (like 2TB for example) and if you restrict its size through Linux in a PC, you can make PS3 ignore the bytes after 1.5TB and make it work (not sure if it works 100%).

The HDD when formated in PS3, it gets encrypted so it's not readable and even writeable in a PC normally, only read and export data with a tool only if the user has the EID root key, right?

So what about if the user could buy a 2TB+ HDD. If we could have a hybrid hdd installed in our PS3?
Restricting its size to 1TB and hide the rest from the default PS3 system / Official Apps and create original partitions, data partitions like the PS2 "+" type partition to be used only by homebrews?

Maybe for example, they could act as if they are USB Mass Storage. Something that fakes it as if it was inserted in one of the USBs.
Like Virtual Mass Storages (concept from Virtual Memory Cards).
PS3 slim has 2 USB ports that can connect right and fat ps3 have 4 USBs and if I remember 1 sd card reader right?
It would be interesting if we made possible to fake PS3 Slim that it had more than 2 USB ports if necessary to fake this kind of storage.

Usage:
Retroarch instead of "stealing" the PS3 filesystem size from the 1TB officially supported "part" of the HDD, it could use the extra partitions to store ROMs, screenshots, covers and saves.
Movian M7 also could benefit from that and other homebrews like ScummVM and more.
The rest of PS3 hdd size would be left to be used solely for PSN games and game ISOs.
Also if we fake that the other partitions are like flash / thumb drives, we could open this not encrypted data on PC like regular fat32 / exfat / ntfs and manage them easily.

Any of this is possible? How could be done theoretically? What are the limitations?

Correct me if some of my information I wrote here about the PS3/PS2 is wrong so it will be a safe and healthy space to all noobs and advanced people understand our beloved PS3.

Best Regards,
Lambada.
 
Logic structures of PS2 HDD and PS3 HDD are completely different and unrelated to each other. If You want know more about APA, read this article (on second tab). How PS3 logic structure looks like, You can see in this diagram.

PS3 HDD limit came from some bugs on kernel level because all experiments to bypass it by bypassing emetini etc. involved, failed. Big thanks here for @andshrew

- - -

There is no official limit. I often used 1TiB term (BTW: 1TB is less and definitely not 1024GB ;]) because it is mostly true, but... not always. The same is with higher barrier for working fsck. We don't know from what exactly this depends.

HPA setting up isn't nothing strange if OS don't trying lift it. And PS3 firmware doesn't, so it always be able to use it, even with size not available today on market. So i.e it will always be possible to limit drive size in that way from eg. 100TB to 2TB as long as disk firmware stick to atapi standard. But that's not any cure for us because excluded sectors, cannot be used (drive exposing setting up sectors range, from 0 to chosen one).

Yes, PS3 HDD is encrypted, not literally fully but mostly.

I'm not sure if Your idea is technically possible because it means that app (eg. WMM) needs removing HPA after boot to VSH, then also setting up it again using the same LBA value as before on PC, before user will turn off the console. Actually this is pretty cool idea, fresh one and no one test it yet! :) Filesystem on space (and of any size) excluded can be any, and cannot be written in PS3PT. So i.e WMM could just start reading it after one sector further than last sector declared before HPA lifting and parse its fs (e.g exFAT or NTFS). Yet this is very complicated for end user, also on PC side to write games. First because it needs removing and setting up HPA with the same values as before, secondly because it must be written in Big Endian, and third because Windows is to crippled for all that and needs dedicated app or apps. Encryption is not needed in this case.

What You talking about virtual devices have no sense. It doesn't matter what mount point You make and where. You thinking about it in Windows way. ;)
 
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I never had a ps3 that would take a 2tb hdd. it doeas not matter if its size limited in linux or not. I test it on every ps3 what i get to my hands. if i put a 2tb hdd in ps3 the ps3 starts with a screen that the hdd is not supported and you should put a compatible drive in it.
Yes the sweet spot is 1tb. I never seen here in my country any 1,5tb hdd but yes they exist.
As berion said the hdd file structures are totaly diferent between ps2 and ps3. nothing to compare there anything.
Ps3 hdd is encrypted to specific console. No you can not use Hdd with installed os in another ps3 console. you need to format and install new os no matter what.
 
Luisile said:
I never had a ps3 that would take a 2tb hdd.
Click to expand...
Luisile, It was just a random example of a size bigger than 1,5tb.

Luisile said:
As berion said the hdd file structures are totaly diferent between ps2 and ps3. nothing to compare there anything.
Click to expand...
Yup I know that PS2 and PS3 file structure are different. I was just trying to think different, how a PS3 could do it in a way compared to PS2 HDD features (like the APA "+" partitions for example PS3).

Luisile said:
Ps3 hdd is encrypted to specific console. No you can not use Hdd with installed os in another ps3 console. you need to format and install new os no matter what.
Click to expand...
Yes, you are right! I learnt by experiment few years ago.

Berion said:
I'm not sure if Your idea is technically possible because it means that app (eg. WMM) needs removing HPA after boot to VSH, then also setting up it again using the same LBA value as before on PC, before user will turn off the console. Actually this is pretty cool idea, fresh one and no one test it yet!
Click to expand...
Berion, this is cool! Possible is a great answer =D

Berion said:
What You talking about virtual devices have no sense.
Click to expand...
Hmmm. It depends, it can make sense if I explain it clearly and with details. Let me try, Berion:

  1. For example, WebmanMOD loads an ISO file and fakes the system that a real disc is inserted in PS3 right? Ok, lets go to the next step;
  2. We know that the user needs to prepare a oversized HDD (more than 1.5tb) to work with PS3. So after using linux/windows tools to limit its size, part of the HDD will be recognized by PS3, the other half won't because it was limited by the user;
  3. What if WebmanMOD recognizes the HDD address that was hidden for PS3 System and it fakes that it's a Portable USB HDD? This way all softwares that already recognize external drives will recognize this Virtual External drive. More compatibility with everything that the scene has already done. Be it PSN games on external drive (but now in the virtual), PS3 ISO, PS1 ISO and Retroarch roms, etc.

What do you think?
 
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"+" symbol in PS2 partitions is nothing strange. It is just a label, can be any. In example majority of partitions of PS3 doesn't have any label, except VFLASH "sub-partitions" with FAT12/16 which have label "NO NAME" ;) and User Data partition with UFS2 which have label "cell_mw_cfs".

Ad1. Yes, but it doesn't create any virtual device.
Ad2. Yes.
Ad3. WMM cannot access to sectors beyond HPA limit, HDD firmware will not exposing those sectors to anything, but applications can ask him to remove HPA. So eg. WMM must remove HPA to he access those sectors or else disk will ending for him like for PS3 firmware. And imagine situation that console hang in some game and because of that, WMM will not be able set it again: on next boot PS3 will display message that HDD wasn't found. So it is not so super cool bypass, yet it is the only one possible at our current knowledge, and at least in theory possible. Main problem with that is it solution only for advanced people, John Doe will blame Aldostools that this "WMM brok his HDD", add to it partition table overwriting on Windows called "disk initializing" which very popular trap for people with no IT basics. Anyway, what You describe have zero sense (sorry) and is technically not possible.
 
Hmmm yeah, I agree, John Doe would blame others because of its ignorance.

But about the non-sense stuff... So Virtual BD-ROM (ISOs mounted on PS3 by WMM, Managunz, etc), Daemon Tools Virtual CD-ROM (mounted discs in Windows PC), nothing this makes sense? I was using analogy here, I'm not telling exactly what to do in black and white, 0 or 1. Maybe I didn't use the right words...

Mounting part of the HDD beyond the HPA limit as a Virtual Device wouldn't help, if it were possible? Ohhh ok, if the PS3 hangs John Doe will be summoned to curse the developer behind this great but advanced feature for noobs.

Thanks for keeping up the discussion. PS3 Scene is looking a little dorment here in the forums lately.
 
WMM not making any virtual BD drive. ;) But even if he would, You still cannot make virtual HDD/USB from area hidden in HPA.

Imagine that Your HDD have physically 10 sectors. You hide last 4. So from now, all device seeing it as 6 sector storage. There is no workaround it. You can only remove HPA and set HPA with user defined sectors.

Forums deserting since Facebook, Twitter and Discord appeared with their mobile applications. So enjoy our grandpa circle until someone will turn off the lights. :D
 
Berion said:
WMM not making any virtual BD drive. ;) But even if he would, You still cannot make virtual HDD/USB from area hidden in HPA.

Imagine that Your HDD have physically 10 sectors. You hide last 4. So from now, all device seeing it as 6 sector storage. There is no workaround it. You can only remove HPA and set HPA with user defined sectors.

Forums deserting since Facebook, Twitter and Discord appeared with their mobile applications. So enjoy our grandpa circle until someone will turn off the lights. :D
Click to expand...
The HDD HPA explanation made in your new example made more sense and made mine non-sense. Thanks!

============
Facebook, does someone still use it? LOL.
Look, Discord is just a copy of a Skinned mIRC but on steroids... But still if Discord decides to shut it down, everythy is lost.
The raise of social media managed by corporations doesn't give us the power, control and privacy about our social circle.

IRC everyone could host a server. The same for the forums. Anyway, for a community that was build related to build to discuss, create, to answer questions, etc, I think the Forum format is more adequate. It's better because the way you can search content, the way is organized is easier in a UX point of view. The topicay, sections are more static because they are threads, making it easy to find information even before using the search input.
A social media ruled by a corporation that has similar features as a forum is Reddit. This is way you can search in google and find answers before even entering their site, just like psx-place. But still... If they shutdown someday, the community doesn't have a backup. Sad... but still a better approach for a primary database for our kind of community. Discord should be secondary.
That's just my two cents, Grandpa Berion :santasmile:
I hope our community doesn't die. PS2 Scene in another hand looks more active here in these forums.
 
So in summary, possible solution would looks like this:
  1. Limiting drive capacity on PC by setting up HPA.
  2. Installing fw etc. like normally.
  3. User lifting HPA on PC, attaching unused space covering by HPA to loop device (losetup with --offset parram, so right after last sector used in HPA from step 1) and formatting it to eg. exFAT.
  4. Again setting up HPA using the same value like in step 1.
  5. Application on PS3 side (eg. WMM) need to remove HPA and determine exFAT start LBA based on PS3PT sector range in last partition or from config file in which LBA be stored, to mount that space as eg. "dev_hdd3" and been able to read/dump games there/from there.
  6. Application after end of usage must on User demand, setting up again HPA before console turn off or else procedure will no longer be able to perform on PS3 but PC.
Problems:
  • User must know how to use hdparm, losetup and mkfs in the first place with basic Linux knowledge.
  • Possible to do on Windows but very painful due to needs of plenty 3rd party apps to use. Also problematic is aggressive so called disk initializing which will ruin PS3 environment if user agree or if performed without user asking.
  • User must remember LBA count he used and/or create config for target app with that value.
  • If game froze and hard reset is the only solution, then HPA must be set again but only on PC (because PS3 will not be able to recognize drive with all sectors).
 
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Lambada said:
Some say that you can use HDDs over 1.5TB (like 2TB for example) and if you restrict its size through Linux in a PC, you can make PS3 ignore the bytes after 1.5TB and make it work (not sure if it works 100%).
Click to expand...
Oh it works alright, if done correctly. I've been using a 2TB Samsung EVO as 1.525TB in my PS3 for some years now and I have not encountered a problem yet.
I recently got another PS3 (A Slim model to overclock) and I've already bought another 2TB SSD to install in it.
I also take advantage of the 8% extra option in Evilnat.
 
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A question:
What is the technical reason that's limiting the PS3 having a larger capacity HDD?
I might make a YouTube guide vid of how to make a 1.525TB SSD/HDD from 2TB drives and I think mentioning why it's limited would be nice.
 
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@psy1 The reason or reasons is/are unknown. PS3PT (partition table) and UFS2 (filesystem used on UserData partition) supporting zeta bytes size. Probably it is some kind of hardcoded limit on various of part of system (emerinit etc.) like Haxxxen said. So limit doesn't came from logic structure, that's for sure, but firmware itself.

If You making video guide, maybe You could use my toolkit? ;) Tasker script, option no.3. No need to decrypting drive of course. In case of problems, contact me. Some SSDs will not allow to set HPA without setting up first user and/or master password which this script not covering up, but could be if I found someone with such issue. ^^
https://www.psx-place.com/resources/ps3-hdd-decryption-helper.1293/
 
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It is matter of double click on script, type numer on keyboard, type device id, type another number and pressing enter. :)

Take in mind that newest disks cannot use HPA but AMAC. Not sure if hdparm supporting that yet.
 
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