PS3 (Research/Experimental) - NEC/TOKIN Capacitors Replacement - YLOD

"Why did Sony replace the necs with tantalums in later slim models?"
Why did they switch from a Samsung flash to a Macronix? They made a new device, they pick new parts.

"They still run extremely hot (well over 80 degrees C with stock paste and fan speeds) yet barely ever get YLOD. I can even hear the outer plastic in my decade old slim making cracking noises after i turn it off due to heat warping it a bit, yet no interior bga issues here. Ive personally only seen dead slims caused by physical abuse or insect infestations. So why did Sony replace the perfectly up to spec necs?"
I don't buy Slims since the profit margin sucks, so I don't know anything about them. I'm happy to admit when I don't know what I'm talking about. I can venture a few simple guesses, but they'd just be guesses.

"How the association between the same capacitor from a Laptop which is the same used in the PlayStation3, isnt valid"
I just explained that. They are low ESR caps in a high frequency circuit. The design of the circuit they are used in is just as important to their lifespan as the environment they are used in, as you yourself even said. If I have to explain how ripple currents can eat a capacitor for breakfast, you are not qualified to be in this conversation.

"Yet, you throw your studies about Solder-Joints cracking,but thoes studies never mention a single thing about the PlayStation3"
What? The PS3 has BGA connections, therefore that study applies to the PS3. It's a purely mechanical problem, the circuit surrounding it doesn't matter.

"if all the machines were to use Lead-Free, all of them would be dead by now, there are still people with OGs PS3s never reballed, yet they still work, if this is such a wide-spread issue"
Yes, they will all eventually develop stress cracks. That particular study used a slightly higher temperature to accelerate this in order to study the effects of heatsink pressure on the development and propagation of cracks. A lower temperature means a longer life - the "rule of 10s" regarding temperatures is generally that a MTBF is doubled for each 10C drop. So, we're talking THOUSANDS of heat cycles.

"i wonder why it doesn´t affect the newer models, if the same aloy is used between all Generations"
Better designs, lower TDP, better manufacturing methods. It's kind of expected that they learn from their mistakes and cut down on manufacturing defects that lead to premature failure.

"the degradation tolerance it will go can´t be lower than 1100/1150uF"
Check the datasheet again. They are 20% tolerance caps. They can come straight from the factory lower than that. You're trying to argue against a documented fact.

"video"
I repeat: I never said they don't fail. I just said you shouldn't be randomly ripping them off the board if you don't even have the tools to diagnose things correctly. I don't know what he's saying, or what the point of that is. The caps he pulled all tested within tolerance, but his meter doesn't show ESR, so he's missing half the picture. For all I know he's saying the same thing as me. He also was in the process of reballing the GPU, so that doesn't tell you anything if it worked after since he took care of both issues at once.

Here's where it gets fun, though! I can see the tell tale signs of either stress cracks, a "head in pillow" defect, or a "non-wet" defect (
) (https://www.smta.org/chapters/files...ssembly-Process-Modifications-and-Control.pdf): look at the upper left corner of the array (the corners are where the joints almost always fail first due to the warping of the chip). The solder left over after he lifted the chip is a more dull color and a more smushed out shape because of oxidation not allowing it to wet properly like the rest of the array - this is also why reflows do not correct BGA defects in devices that have been in service prior to failure. The defective joints oxidize and will not flow. It has to be removed and cleaned. If he were to show you the pads on the GPU, the corresponding area will either have a small amount of similarly dull solder (for head on pillow) or be COMPLETELY clean - no solder at all (for non-wet or stress cracks). I have 24 hours left in the drying oven on my next CECHE01 with the YLOD, hopefully I'll be able to take some pictures where it is easy to see.

So, here's what we've established: I have a capacitance and ESR meter but you do not (I would think this would be a super important thing in a conversation about failed capacitors). I have shown you in spec caps pulled from YLOD consoles, you have not shown me out of spec caps. I have shown you research papers, IPC standards, regular industry practices explained by the people that manufacture these things, and actual evidence. You've shown me a Youtube video of a GPU with a solder defect and capacitors that test in spec according to their own datasheet. You also still haven't provided any evidence supporting your claim that heating up the tokins will fix them. Include sources.
 
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squeept said:
"Why did Sony replace the necs with tantalums in later slim models?"
Why did they switch from a Samsung flash to a Macronix? They made a new device, they pick new parts.

"They still run extremely hot (well over 80 degrees C with stock paste and fan speeds) yet barely ever get YLOD. I can even hear the outer plastic in my decade old slim making cracking noises after i turn it off due to heat warping it a bit, yet no interior bga issues here. Ive personally only seen dead slims caused by physical abuse or insect infestations. So why did Sony replace the perfectly up to spec necs?"
I don't buy Slims since the profit margin sucks, so I don't know anything about them. I'm happy to admit when I don't know what I'm talking about. I can venture a few simple guesses, but they'd just be guesses.

"How the association between the same capacitor from a Laptop which is the same used in the PlayStation3, isnt valid"
I just explained that. They are low ESR caps in a high frequency circuit. The design of the circuit they are used in is just as important to their lifespan as the environment they are used in, as you yourself even said. If I have to explain how ripple currents can eat a capacitor for breakfast, you are not qualified to be in this conversation.

"Yet, you throw your studies about Solder-Joints cracking,but thoes studies never mention a single thing about the PlayStation3"
What? The PS3 has BGA connections, therefore that study applies to the PS3. It's a purely mechanical problem, the circuit surrounding it doesn't matter.

"if all the machines were to use Lead-Free, all of them would be dead by now, there are still people with OGs PS3s never reballed, yet they still work, if this is such a wide-spread issue"
Yes, they will all eventually develop stress cracks. That particular study used a slightly higher temperature to accelerate this in order to study the effects of heatsink pressure on the development and propagation of cracks. A lower temperature means a longer life - the "rule of 10s" regarding temperatures is generally that a MTBF is doubled for each 10C drop. So, we're talking THOUSANDS of heat cycles.

"i wonder why it doesn´t affect the newer models, if the same aloy is used between all Generations"
Better designs, lower TDP, better manufacturing methods. It's kind of expected that they learn from their mistakes and cut down on manufacturing defects that lead to premature failure.

"the degradation tolerance it will go can´t be lower than 1100/1150uF"
Check the datasheet again. They are 20% tolerance caps. They can come straight from the factory lower than that. You're trying to argue against a documented fact.

"video"
I repeat: I never said they don't fail. I just said you shouldn't be randomly ripping them off the board if you don't even have the tools to diagnose things correctly. I don't know what he's saying, or what the point of that is. The caps he pulled all tested within tolerance, but his meter doesn't show ESR, so he's missing half the picture. For all I know he's saying the same thing as me. He also was in the process of reballing the GPU, so that doesn't tell you anything if it worked after since he took care of both issues at once.

Here's where it gets fun, though! I can see the tell tale signs of either stress cracks, a "head in pillow" defect, or a "non-wet" defect (
) (https://www.smta.org/chapters/files...ssembly-Process-Modifications-and-Control.pdf): look at the upper left corner of the array (the corners are where the joints almost always fail first due to the warping of the chip). The solder left over after he lifted the chip is a more dull color and a more smushed out shape because of oxidation not allowing it to wet properly like the rest of the array - this is also why reflows do not correct BGA defects in devices that have been in service prior to failure. The defective joints oxidize and will not flow. It has to be removed and cleaned. If he were to show you the pads on the GPU, the corresponding area will either have a small amount of similarly dull solder (for head on pillow) or be COMPLETELY clean - no solder at all (for non-wet or stress cracks). I have 24 hours left in the drying oven on my next CECHE01 with the YLOD, hopefully I'll be able to take some pictures where it is easy to see.

So, here's what we've established: I have a capacitance and ESR meter but you do not (I would think this would be a super important thing in a conversation about failed capacitors). I have shown you in spec caps pulled from YLOD consoles, you have not shown me out of spec caps. I have shown you research papers, IPC standards, regular industry practices explained by the people that manufacture these things, and actual evidence. You've shown me a Youtube video of a GPU with a solder defect and capacitors that test in spec according to their own datasheet. You also still haven't provided any evidence supporting your claim that heating up the tokins will fix them. Include sources.
Click to expand...


No, ive just showed you what you wanted, i dont have any dead boards, or any sophisticated equipement to take them off, i am not a repair shop, i am certainly not going to take them off my personal PlayStation3, for your own enjoyment, there are plenty more videos out there, lads testing the NECs by themselfs, if you bothered even searching for them instead of asking it, it would made my time worthwhile.

I well supported my claim that heating the NECs restore they´re capacitive properties temporarily, with the Laptop example, the same can be used on the PlayStation3 or any NEC Device for that factor, or else,how the hair-dryer worked,by shifting the BGA Grid? Absolutely not, the heat from the Hair-Dryer isnt even enough to fix a micron from the BGA Grid, it doesnt even touch them, not to mention when i heated the Laptop back in the day, the CPU was a PGA Package, and the GPU was a removable PCI Express ATI variant, the North and South Bridges,weren´t even close to the NEC/TOKIN itself, but yet it worked, are you just saying its pure luck? My guess it wasn´t luck but rather testing,trial and error,but of course, you want that documented, and where shall i get you that,if it isnt documented anywhere? You expect a billion dollar company like NEC to document that blowing hot air will make thoes things work again? I dont think so, again, take any NEC Device, blow some hot air into thoes things, and eventually the thing will be working again.

I wouldnt say better cooling solutions, or lower TDP, or better manufacturing costs, take both 2000 and 2100 PlayStation3 Slim models, both have the same identical board layout, both have identical cooling solutions, in fact they are 100% interchangable, but somehow the 2100 lacks something the 2000 has, and that is again, the NEC Capacitors, both run at an equal TDP,and both have more than adequate cooling, but yet the 2000 Slim fails, hows that, is it the BGA Grid,both models share the same aloy used, i am sure $ony wouldn´t switch the aloy in such a short time-frame from September 2009 to March 2010,and they certainly didn´t apply glue to the chip, like Microsoft did, in order to hold them in place, $ony knew exactly what the issue was, but of course, they wouldnt tell that.
 
"I repeat: I never said they don't fail. I just said you shouldn't be randomly ripping them off the board if you don't even have the tools to diagnose things correctly."

So am I just super lucky to have all six systems that i've successfully repaired using this method not fail in a couple weeks like you said on reddit? My first attempt was roughly two months ago on a system that belongs to someone else and i've never heard any complaints since. I can confirm both of my personal CECH-A01's as of right now boot up and play intensive games like GTA V just fine and i've repaired those over a month ago. And again, i'd love to have all of the expensive equipment you do to properly desolder these capacitors and test them myself, but I just can't see the value in it for a one time use. As far as i'm concerned, all of my revived consoles with new caps has yet to fail me, unlike many reported reballs... and they're so cheap! And unless you don't know how to solder, it's not like replacing the caps is going to cause more problems with your system. So for the average person like me, there's really no harm in losing a couple bucks and a couple hours of my life in trying this fix before spending well over a $100 to send my system to a professional.
 
"So am I just super lucky to have all six systems that i've successfully repaired using this method not fail in a couple weeks like you said"
There are thousands of forum posts, youtube videos, and reddit posts from people that got YLOD then "fixed" it by changing their thermal paste and putting it back together. I'm sure you're aware of this. How would that possibly work if it was the tokins? As I already described, they just shifted things around and tightened some screws better when they put it back together. Many of them lasted for months before they failed again. I'll check back in after 6 months when they've had time to run through a bunch of thermal cycles.

If you're going to continue fixing them, please humor me and try my very easy initial method of diagnosis: once you have the motherboard out of the tray, before you start replacing the tokins, add a weight (I generally go overkill and use a pair of 1 kilogram weights) on the top of the GPU heatsink then try to boot up the system. You will need to put a heatsink on the CPU as well, the heat spreader is not enough. It will hit thermal shutdown pretty quick without it. Probably wanna deal with the old thermal paste first too. Anyway, it will take you 30 seconds, it won't hurt anything, and you should be doing it to rule things out anyway regardless of whether you think I'm crazy. I hope I don't have to explain that if it boots up then it has nothing to do with the tokins.

"there's really no harm in losing a couple bucks and a couple hours of my life in trying this fix before spending well over a $100 to send my system to a professional"
Fair enough, can't argue with that.

"No, ive just showed you what you wanted"
That video shows tokins that are within the specifications of the data sheet, and a GPU that has a CLEARLY VISIBLE area of oxidized pads from BGA defects. You are straight up delusional.

For the tenth time, YES HEATING UP A CAPACITOR CHANGES ITS CAPACITANCE BUT ONLY WHILE IT IS HOT. Once it cools back down, it goes back down. I already linked to the appropriate wikipedia articles covering this behavior. I also linked to the failure modes for polymer caps, covering exactly how what you're saying is violently incorrect. I also explained how capacitors can fail differently because of being in different circuits and devices. I repeat: If I have to explain how ripple currents can eat a capacitor for breakfast, you are not qualified to be in this conversation. If you disagree with any of that, take it up with wikipedia or my engineering textbooks, just leave me out of it.

So if my reballing a console just fixes it because I have heated up the tokins, it would ONLY work while it is still hot. Once it is cooled back down, it would not work, and that's simply not the case. I give 6 month warranties that I almost never have to cover. Even including a period where I had a severe equipment issue, I had less than 10 returns for any reason out of the last 100 fat boys I've reballed. I've had MAYBE 2 returns on that last 100 reballed PS4 consoles (which don't have tokins, by the way...). My feedback would be filled with negatives if I was constantly sending out consoles that break.

I have a jig for every motherboard I work on, and a set of weights that I use to help diagnose whether there are cracks. I literally just set a weight on top of a heatsink then test if it will boot. But somehow, I'm guessing you'll make up a reason that the tokins fix themselves when I put a weight on the GPU.

I've linked to scientific evidence for every single claim I've made. There's no conspiracy to suppress the information you're looking for, you can't find the data because you're making it up. I guess we're done here. You refuse to believe that a tiny amount of heat and pressure can cause something to shift a micron. You're disagreeing with the IPC, research papers, industry experts, and just physics in general. I don't know what to tell you then. Go argue with them about it, I'm done trying to explain it. I'll check back in six months to see how many fixed consoles are still running. See y'all in March!
 
This is kinda comical, reading this seems like 2 people fighting over the same correct answers? why i dont get it, rather than actually helping each other to solve these issues for others to enjoy their machines again. I cant back up the NEC tonkin issue yet as ive been out of the console game for ps3s for a few years now and it seems this is really only just taken off as an issue that could be correct, but so far people are having success? so there must be something there in the proof that needs to be looked at.

Im big on reballing the BGA sites with a rework station (its still sitting next to me) because i know these are true facts also but this doesn't say the tonkin caps cant be an issue either. im certainly going to jump on this tonkin band wagon to see if i can get any results since i have many consoles in ylod states in my possession i can use.

Ylod comes in many many forms so i cant rule out either processes at the end of the day.
 
SEGA-CD said:
Any thoughts on this comment I found on Reddit, Naked_Snake1995? It's in reference to your original post on this thread as well as the response to your fix by PS3 Specialist.
Click to expand...

The part where he said the reason the system worked after replacing the Tokin caps was because "you took it apart and put it back together" :rolling::rolling::rolling:
 
Update guys: Noticed that my CEHC04 has the wrong psu model, perhaps previous owner replaced it with the wrong one. So i went looking for the right model and i stumbled upon someone that didn't know what he was selling - a 100% working CECHA06 for.. what converts to20 bucks. He sold it because it was not taking discs in - It just needed a mechanism reset. It had a PSU that according to the ps3 dev wiki fit the CECHC04 so i popped it in, but it appears the wrong PSU wasn't the source of the problem (although it probably needs to be replaced anyway, as the one currently in it outputs 0,6A on the 5V line instead of 3A). So in about a month I will try to order more caps and replace (or solder in parallel with) the remaining NECs.
 
Bozo said:
Update guys: Noticed that my CEHC04 has the wrong psu model, perhaps previous owner replaced it with the wrong one. So i went looking for the right model and i stumbled upon someone that didn't know what he was selling - a 100% working CECHA06 for.. what converts to20 bucks. He sold it because it was not taking discs in - It just needed a mechanism reset. It had a PSU that according to the ps3 dev wiki fit the CECHC04 so i popped it in, but it appears the wrong PSU wasn't the source of the problem (although it probably needs to be replaced anyway, as the one currently in it outputs 0,6A on the 5V line instead of 3A). So in about a month I will try to order more caps and replace (or solder in parallel with) the remaining NECs.
Click to expand...
CECHC Models only accept the following PSU Models: ZSSR5194A/APS-226/APS-227 and APS-231,check these models for reference.

So you've got yourself a Singaporean Model PS3, these must be Fully Backwards Compatible, since is a A06 Model, although, i thought Singapore only received the Partial ones like Europe, but i would salvage that one as well.

I already treat my C04 with intensive care, imagine if i owned a A01 Model, I wouldn't even touch it. [emoji23]

Sent from my G8141 using Tapatalk
 
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Naked_Snake1995 said:
CECHC Models only accept the following PSU Models: ZSSR5194A/APS-226/APS-227 and APS-231
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Huh, so it doesn't matter whether there is 0,6A or 3A on the 5V line? In the CECHA06 i have an APS-227 and in the CECHC04 i have an APS-231 (https://www.psdevwiki.com/ps3/Power_Supply led me to believe it was not the right PSU for this model).

I'll be keeping the CECHA06 for the retro gaming shelf that I'm planning to build, since it's the only hardware that can play PS1, PS2 and PS3 games. I know emulating those consoles is possible (and I don't mean piracy), but it's just not the same for me. I also have a slim model, and to be clear - When it comes to PS3 games I'm gonna be playing those on that model, since i want to avoid unnecessary strain ot the CECHA.

I'll post an update when I get more caps, but it might take a while since the semester is starting and I'm going to have less time. Thanks for all the help guys!
 
Bozo said:
Huh, so it doesn't matter whether there is 0,6A or 3A on the 5V line? In the CECHA06 i have an APS-227 and in the CECHC04 i have an APS-231 (https://www.psdevwiki.com/ps3/Power_Supply led me to believe it was not the right PSU for this model).

I'll be keeping the CECHA06 for the retro gaming shelf that I'm planning to build, since it's the only hardware that can play PS1, PS2 and PS3 games. I know emulating those consoles is possible (and I don't mean piracy), but it's just not the same for me. I also have a slim model, and to be clear - When it comes to PS3 games I'm gonna be playing those on that model, since i want to avoid unnecessary strain ot the CECHA.

I'll post an update when I get more caps, but it might take a while since the semester is starting and I'm going to have less time. Thanks for all the help guys!
Click to expand...
For CECHC Models APS-231 works great, in fact its one of the more recommended models, i had a C04 years ago with a swapped APS-231,never presented any issue, the C04 PS3 doesn't need 400 Watts, and the 231 provides enough amps as a 227,from 3.2~1.5Amp range, the C Model needs 2.2Amps which is more than enough for it.

On the CECHA Models however, there are reports that APS-231 its a bit unstable due to the extra PlayStation2 Hardware to work with, unlike the C Model, so APS-226/227 are the only choices, on that particular model.

Sent from my G8141 using Tapatalk
 
From the very beginning, there was not any explanation of how this finding came to be and why those specific capacitor values were chosen. A lot of it seems to be anectdoctal evidence, rather than claims that were backed up with research. I think it is okay to experiment, but the first post does not explain that it was just found through trial-and-error either. Worst still, this thread was pinned without further elaboration, making it seem like an important fix that is endorsed by the forum.

I am rather surprised that the advice does not include recommending capacitor replacements of similar capacity and a number of replacements (some users have used four, or even more). Even if it "works", surely there was a reason why specific models were used. Or at least an explanation on why the values and numbers do not matter.

At the end of the day, some critique is okay, isn't it? After all, a forum is for discussions. If it cannot be explained properly, then we should perhaps leave it as an unproven technique.

It is still interesting to know why or why not these capacitors would have mattered in the YLOD equation.
 
fldasfklasdf said:
Are these ok to use? https://www.digikey.com/product-detail/en/vishay-sprague/TMCMB0E337MTRF/718-2412-1-ND/10107589
Click to expand...

If i were u the only thing i would look out for is the height of the caps u chose. they are a tad on the tall side so u may have issues (depending on ur soldering skills?) with the metal frame hitting on 1 side of the mother board. the tonkin caps are 2mm in height and are almost flush mounted and u pretty much have mayb 1mm to play with. try find some that are 2mm or under would be my advice. will save cutting any of the frame work like one member did in this thread coz he thought he had pressure issues that can be avoided easily.

sp193 said:
From the very beginning, there was not any explanation of how this finding came to be and why those specific capacitor values were chosen. A lot of it seems to be anectdoctal evidence, rather than claims that were backed up with research. I think it is okay to experiment, but the first post does not explain that it was just found through trial-and-error either. Worst still, this thread was pinned without further elaboration, making it seem like an important fix that is endorsed by the forum.

I am rather surprised that the advice does not include recommending capacitor replacements of similar capacity and a number of replacements (some users have used four, or even more). Even if it "works", surely there was a reason why specific models were used. Or at least an explanation on why the values and numbers do not matter.

At the end of the day, some critique is okay, isn't it? After all, a forum is for discussions. If it cannot be explained properly, then we should perhaps leave it as an unproven technique.

It is still interesting to know why or why not these capacitors would have mattered in the YLOD equation.
Click to expand...

i think u need to read it again carefully man, ur missing some vital info thats given that doesnt need any explanation if u use ur head and any maths skill u may have? all info is there.
 
squeept said:
"So am I just super lucky to have all six systems that i've successfully repaired using this method not fail in a couple weeks like you said"
There are thousands of forum posts, youtube videos, and reddit posts from people that got YLOD then "fixed" it by changing their thermal paste and putting it back together. I'm sure you're aware of this. How would that possibly work if it was the tokins? As I already described, they just shifted things around and tightened some screws better when they put it back together. Many of them lasted for months before they failed again. I'll check back in after 6 months when they've had time to run through a bunch of thermal cycles.

If you're going to continue fixing them, please humor me and try my very easy initial method of diagnosis: once you have the motherboard out of the tray, before you start replacing the tokins, add a weight (I generally go overkill and use a pair of 1 kilogram weights) on the top of the GPU heatsink then try to boot up the system. You will need to put a heatsink on the CPU as well, the heat spreader is not enough. It will hit thermal shutdown pretty quick without it. Probably wanna deal with the old thermal paste first too. Anyway, it will take you 30 seconds, it won't hurt anything, and you should be doing it to rule things out anyway regardless of whether you think I'm crazy. I hope I don't have to explain that if it boots up then it has nothing to do with the tokins.

"there's really no harm in losing a couple bucks and a couple hours of my life in trying this fix before spending well over a $100 to send my system to a professional"
Fair enough, can't argue with that.

"No, ive just showed you what you wanted"
That video shows tokins that are within the specifications of the data sheet, and a GPU that has a CLEARLY VISIBLE area of oxidized pads from BGA defects. You are straight up delusional.

For the tenth time, YES HEATING UP A CAPACITOR CHANGES ITS CAPACITANCE BUT ONLY WHILE IT IS HOT. Once it cools back down, it goes back down. I already linked to the appropriate wikipedia articles covering this behavior. I also linked to the failure modes for polymer caps, covering exactly how what you're saying is violently incorrect. I also explained how capacitors can fail differently because of being in different circuits and devices. I repeat: If I have to explain how ripple currents can eat a capacitor for breakfast, you are not qualified to be in this conversation. If you disagree with any of that, take it up with wikipedia or my engineering textbooks, just leave me out of it.

So if my reballing a console just fixes it because I have heated up the tokins, it would ONLY work while it is still hot. Once it is cooled back down, it would not work, and that's simply not the case. I give 6 month warranties that I almost never have to cover. Even including a period where I had a severe equipment issue, I had less than 10 returns for any reason out of the last 100 fat boys I've reballed. I've had MAYBE 2 returns on that last 100 reballed PS4 consoles (which don't have tokins, by the way...). My feedback would be filled with negatives if I was constantly sending out consoles that break.

I have a jig for every motherboard I work on, and a set of weights that I use to help diagnose whether there are cracks. I literally just set a weight on top of a heatsink then test if it will boot. But somehow, I'm guessing you'll make up a reason that the tokins fix themselves when I put a weight on the GPU.

I've linked to scientific evidence for every single claim I've made. There's no conspiracy to suppress the information you're looking for, you can't find the data because you're making it up. I guess we're done here. You refuse to believe that a tiny amount of heat and pressure can cause something to shift a micron. You're disagreeing with the IPC, research papers, industry experts, and just physics in general. I don't know what to tell you then. Go argue with them about it, I'm done trying to explain it. I'll check back in six months to see how many fixed consoles are still running. See y'all in March!
Click to expand...
I don't disagree with the points you've brought up but could you post some photos of the BGA cracking on the PS3s you've been working on? I've been searching for a photo of actual evidence that there ever was BGA cracking on the PS3 but all I've been able to find is people saying "yes the PS3 has it, here's a photo of it on a completely different device"
Just to be clear I don't have a dog in this fight, I just want a factual consensus based on empirical evidence so we can end the bickering once and for all and look for long term solutions to keep these things alive.
 
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DoublesAdvocate said:
I don't disagree with the points you've brought up but could you post some photos of the BGA cracking on the PS3s you've been working on? I've been searching for a photo of actual evidence that there ever was BGA cracking on the PS3 but all I've been able to find is people saying "yes the PS3 has it, here's a photo of it on a completely different device"
Click to expand...


check post #401 in his pdf hes given. its pretty much all there. its not directly shown on the PS3 and u wont find one more than likely as such but this covers all BGA sites which the ps3 has, so they unfortunately do suffer the same issues. what he can show u is the defects found on the BGA sites and even on the GPU's and CPUs from PS3's which are tell tail signs.
 
wrx884 said:
check post #401 in his pdf hes given. its pretty much all there. its not directly shown on the PS3 and u wont find one more than likely as such but this covers all BGA sites which the ps3 has, so they unfortunately do suffer the same issues. what he can show u is the defects found on the BGA sites and even on the GPU's and CPUs from PS3's which are tell tail signs.
Click to expand...
Like I said before I don't deny that BGA cracking is an issue in the electronics industry (its a long standing and well documented issue) I just have yet to see anyone presenting anything but text based anecdotes when it comes to the PS3. His explanation as to why later PS3s dont have this issue is that the TDP eventually dropped but he doesn't explain why this remained an issue even on the later (lower TDP) fats and the earliest slim which both had tokins, yet vanished in every revision post-tokin removal. The TDP in the PS3 isn't exactly all that high, the original 90nm/90nm fats only draw about ~230W which isn't exactly all that high when you compare it to most GPU's which fit all that heat into a much smaller package and run at around the same ~80C that the PS3 does.
I'm more than willing to believe him but even the PSDev wiki uses a photo from some article published in 2006.
https://scienceprog.com/endoscopy-inspection-in-electronics-detect-bga-defects/
 
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yeah im not sure why he would claim that coz all ps3's get this issue even the ps4's are having them atm.

This is why i find this all comical like i stated earlier because it seems both parties are correct here, there is no reason to prove anything to anyone other than just fixing the damn consoles lol. The only real issue is that this find is new and theres not enough practices being done on the tonkins caps to back up the claims but give it time when people start finding this is an issue as well it will be normal practice on both parties.

The reason why u haven't seen anyone present anything coz its expensive to give what ur after and its highly unlikely someone would go to the trouble to do such thing since it brings back very little return in the end. Only someone on a much larger scale can afford something like this but those people dont dabble into PS3's.
 
wrx884 said:
yeah im not sure why he would claim that coz all ps3's get this issue even the ps4's are having them atm.

This is why i find this all comical like i stated earlier because it seems both parties are correct here, there is no reason to prove anything to anyone other than just fixing the damn consoles lol. The only real issue is that this find is new and theres not enough practices being done on the tonkins caps to back up the claims but give it time when people start finding this is an issue as well it will be normal practice on both parties.

The reason why u haven't seen anyone present anything coz its expensive to give what ur after and its highly unlikely someone would go to the trouble to do such thing since it brings back very little return in the end. Only someone on a much larger scale can afford something like this but those people dont dabble into PS3's.
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I've found someone selling 9 broken consoles and I'm going to buy them, the first thing I'll try is his suggestion of simply replacing the thermal paste and remounting it, if that doesn't work I'll move on to his idea of adding mounting pressure to the console and testing it then, if that doesn't work I'll have the tokins professionally replaced and if that still doesn't work then the board is likely toast or in serious need of an actual BGA repair.
 
DoublesAdvocate said:
I've found someone selling 9 broken consoles and I'm going to buy them, the first thing I'll try is his suggestion of simply replacing the thermal paste and remounting it, if that doesn't work I'll move on to his idea of adding mounting pressure to the console and testing it then, if that doesn't work I'll have the tokins professionally replaced and if that still doesn't work then the board is likely toast or in serious need of an actual BGA repair.
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Unless u know the history of the consoles u may not get any results so u may need to be very picky if ur gonna give it a go to try prove anything in here. main issue with that is u dont know whats been done to the consoles so someone else may hinder what ur trying to achieve, if u do then thats a bonus but usually highly unlikely these days with all the self DIY people that can actually do more harm than good.

if u do get down to the reball stage can u perform them urself for this little test? would be kinda pointless if u get that far and not try reballing too, could get expensive otherwise lol.
 
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