yeah i have spot flux in usb areas on sony machines like you said. i just thought that is ok to leave flux (good quality no clean) under bga and clean the ones around the chip. but the ohm diference you saw meens that is indeed needs cleaning
Okay guys this will be the last post about this Frankenstein Phat console. At least on this thread. All future posts and thermal tests will be moved to the "Frankenstein PHAT PS3: CECHA with 40nm RSX" thread. Since this thread is about repair/research, particularly the NEC/TOKINs, but not strictly so, I figured it would be worthwhile to document my troubleshooting process on this thread to begin with. The SYSCON part was what I particularly wanted to point out to readers visiting this thread. I hoped it would help them see how important the SYSCON is as a first step of diagnosis! That's how I learned this was not a NEC/TOKIN issue, but an RSX issue (probably a BGA defect) that indicate it might be a good candidate for the Frankenstein Phat MOD. You have to diagnose the YLOD before you can fix it. That's what the SYSCON is for. Litterally, that's why SONY programmed in these error codes, so their technicians could diagnose and repair! We finally have access! And it only costs a few dollars for the USB adapter. Awesome!
Back to this post! This morning I fully assembled the console. Like I said before, I did not delid the RSX or CPU. I'm also reusing old dried out thermal pads. The only new thing about this console if the 40nm RSX and MX-4 thermal paste between the IHS and HS blocks. I routed the SYSCON wires through the vent holes under the power touch pad. That's a very convenient spot for them. I did tie DIAG to GND using aligator clips, but with the case closed I had to clip it to the RF shielding through the HDD port. That means I need to keep the console on it's side for this first termal test. That's important, because the PS3 can run a few degrees cooler when stood vertically. So basically, this should be the worst case scenario for temps! Old pads, no delid, console layed flat.
First stress test:
For this test I will use the SYSCON terminal to bringup the console. After syncing my controller and setting up HDMI to my TV I let the console idle on the XMB for 5-10 minutes. I figured this console has not run since the YLOD, so I have no idea if the CPU will overheat or not. I don't know the state of the TIC between the IHS/DIE. However, I decided to leave it to get a baseline. The worst case scenario for this console, given it's curent state of delapidation, is that the CPU will overheat in the XMB. It didn't, so I was free to proceed to stress testing.
In my experience, every single CPU has dried old paste making poor contact. They all need delidded IMO. I generally just go ahead and do it as preventative maintenance while cleaning. I made a special tool for it that safely cuts the silicone off every time without damaging the traces. It's super easy to do! It wasn't so easy to make, but not that bad either...
That explains your temperatures. The Themal compound on your CPU is exhaused, dried up, gone, dead...not working! This is causing your CPU to overheat, increasing the temperature differential on the BGA and die bumps, which will quicken a YLOD. YOU NEED TO DELID. Make a CPU delidding tool and it will be easy to get off:
Here is a video of NSC doing it. Skip to 1:03:46 for the relevant bit. I don't like to use his method to remove the RSX, I prefer to heat it and remove the normal way. But to each their own.
You need to grind, file, or sand the thickness down. The tip MUST be very thin. There is very little space for you to get the tool under the edge of the IHS. A razor blade is too thick. A painters knife is too thick. Also very important is that you sand the bottom edge to "blunt" it. This is the edge that will be in contact with the substrate and could dig into the solder mask and destroy traces. If it's blunt or rounded and you come in with a flat angle, you won't have to worry about the traces. The sharp edge will cut the silicone along the IHS and force the blunt edge up onto a cushion of silicone. With braced steady pressure, you can easily cut through the silicone and remove the IHS in under a minute. Making the tool is the hardest part.
For the game, I chose NBA Live 2010. Why? Well, because you can set the computer to play itself under playoff conditions. That has a lot of people in the stadium crowd, which I've notice seem to tax the PS3. This game also had highly detailed player faces and models that pushed the hardware. Also, there's sweat physics, flashing lights from photographers, ribbons and smoke from pyrotechnoics, and lots of camera movements/panning. All of this while I have my hands free to type in syscon commands to monitor temps and fan speeds.
Remember, I don not have custom firmware installed yet. So I don't have WebMAN mod to monitor temps in game or change the default fan curve. There are 3 reasons why:
If there is a NEC/TOKIN or BGA issue waiting to YLOD my console, I don't want it to happen during the firmware flashing stage of a jailbreak and brick the console. I need to stress test to be sure it's stable first.
I don't plan on installing custom firmware on this console! I want this to be my new daily driver (replacing PS3#7, the reballed tokin fixed console). I want to be able to access PSN without worrying about getting banned.
I want baseline temperatures on a stock console to compare with later. So OG thermal pads, console on it's side, with the stock SYSCON fan curves, and a CPU that hasn't been delidded yet. The only thing new/different here is the 40nm RSX and TIC between the HS/IHS'.
Firstly, the Blue LED was illuminated, indicating there was already a disc in the BluRay drive. Yay a freebie! What is it...what is it! Oh...a DVD. Anybody ever seen "Dream Girls" (2006)? It's PG-13 so mayby I'll watch it later. This is the second freebie I've found stuch in a BluRay drive. The previous was "Transformers: Dark of the Moon" on BluRay. I can't say I'm much a fan of the series. It's alway's movies! I never get any games. Probably because when it eats their game they retrieve it. And since I only buy sealed consoles, the chances they left a desirable game in there instead of a boring movie is pretty low.
To the point then. After 15-20 minutes in game the the temperatures settled down and the Fan had them under control. Here are the Temps:
CPU = 72C
RSX = 53C
Fan = 30%
Ambient (room Temp) = 25C
Exhaust (out hottest part of back vents) = 46C
That last temp is important! I felt the air exhausting out the back of cther consoles I've delidded and have great thermal contact and they were hotter. Now you'd think that's bad, but it's actually good. The hotter the air coming out the back the better the thermal contact. It means the heat is efficiently being moved out of the console. This felt warm, but significantly cooler than I've felt before.
Now I have to manage that a bit. The RSX isn't contributing as much heat as it normally does. Usually in a test like this the RSX runs maybe 3-5C cooler than the CPU. So around 68C is generally is what I've seen for a well controlled BC console. 53C on stock paste and fan control is phenomenal! I was hoping I could keep it under 50C when all is said and done with this console. That's my arbitrary heat limit for BGA technology. Chips that run hotter than that flex the bonds too much for the tech to be reliable enough IMO. So If it's below that, I would consider it actually reliable.
So yeah, this RSX is only 3C away from being reliable now (with Lead-Free solder). And that's with my overly strict <50C for BGA rule. Pretty awesome!
I have plenty of ideas to improve these temps, so if you're interested in following this console further, you'll have to move over the the Frankenstein thread for more.
rsx doing well cell is somewhat high although sony claimes cell is a chip that can run safely at 80c. although if you delit cell then both rsx and cell temprature will drop. about this tool for delit cpu i would like to see it when possible
I found that the F1 2013 is the best game to instant trigger the YLOD. I have a slim CECH 2001A which don't have NEC/TOKINS for CELL, only for the RSX and my console with this game the moment which I navigate trough the "Grand Prix" option in menu I have shutdown 100% of the time (randomly other menu sectors of that game also trigger the YLOD somehow, I can play Classics or Young Driver, so the actual gameplay is fine, but some parts of the menus trigger the issue). I can play GranTurismo 6 normally for example, or navigate on XMB, YouTube, with none problem at all, but games like Beyond Two Souls, Metal Gear Rising will randomly shutdown the console.
I can play without hassle for example, Beyond Two Souls if Webman is on SYSCON (fan been controlled by system) which let the PS3 more hot. More hot I don't had noticeable problem with this game, while F1 2013 will always YLOD on the menu. Fan been controlled by the webman to increase speed and cooling better the system I had Beyond crashing randomly, while the F1 2013 with the console more cooled crash just by pressing "X" to choose the "Grand Prix" option.
Why I bring it? Because none tested the F1 2013 so far, only "blockbuster" games that in theory causes YLOD more frequently if the issue is CELL related, and that F1 one seems to be the key to detect RSX related issues in your consoles as well, I also bring it because I need your help to diagnose what is the problem of my beloved video game, my only PS3 so far since 2010. I opened with all care (unsealed for the first time), cleaning the console I found that it was already pretty clean, only some dust here and there, but PSU and Heatsink was pretty clean, nothing was obstructed, just dusted, so I reapplied good thermal paste, closed it with perfection and tested it with 4.87 CFW and even downgraded to 4.84 CFW believing it was a software issue, all of it focused in solving that damn shutdown, but none of it helped, it was before I even knowing about these NEC/TOKINS discussions, they been the possible culprit.
My YLOD is like 3 beeps with red light and green light blinking almost together once then only red light blinking, for ever, I cant stop the blinking unless I remove the power cable. (some people see the first blink as yellow because those two colors forms that one, but clearly I see the green and red separately) So it's a normal "YLOD"? These NEC/TOKINS from RSX could be the issue? And if so, I'm thinking in doing the piggyback for being less invasive/destructive, but most of the successful repairs I found here so far was with FAT consoles, so I even didn't ordered the capacitors yet because I'm not sure it is the issue.
I'm in a similar bot. I have the cech2001b. Delided, loads into xmb, loads into gta5, ylods almost at the exact same place (first mission post detonating the doors). After that, it ylods in the xmb. I leave it alone for a while and it loads fine. Until I put stress (gta5 or gta4). I dumped the Syscon, had errors 14ff and 1701.
on a separate topic...rips posts on the Frankie phat are an amazing read. Way to go!
Got YLOD CECHH model from my friend. Did a quick test while waiting for the FT232 adapter. Resistance on nec/tokins is 6.2 ohms when console is off, on startup it drops to zero then 3 beeps and resistance slowly increases back to 6.2. RSX is dead I guess?
Hello guys.
I bought CECHL04, replaced paste and assembly it.
Fan doesn't work and PS3 showed overheating message and shutted down.
I reassembly it, then fan was working but PS3 showed that message again, and now I can't turn it on.
After pressing power instantly beeps 3 times and red light is blinking.
Fan testing with eject button is working good.
Is there any chance that NEC replace will help?
Hello guys.
I bought CECHL04, replaced paste and assembly it.
Fan doesn't work and PS3 showed overheating message and shutted down.
I reassembly it, then fan was working but PS3 showed that message again, and now I can't turn it on.
After pressing power instantly beeps 3 times and red light is blinking.
Fan testing with eject button is working good.
Is there any chance that NEC replace will help?
Are you able to get the error codes? Check out the syscon page. Like many wise men before me said, dump the error codes before you go tearing those poor necs off.
Got YLOD CECHH model from my friend. Did a quick test while waiting for the FT232 adapter. Resistance on nec/tokins is 6.2 ohms when console is off, on startup it drops to zero then 3 beeps and resistance slowly increases back to 6.2. RSX is dead I guess?
Are you able to get the error codes? Check out the syscon page. Like many wise men before me said, dump the error codes before you go tearing those poor necs off.
Thanks that's a great news! I thought that you need to measure resistance when console is on (which is 0). Now I'm gonna wait for adapter to read syslog, will back with errors
Checking back in with an odd update: finally got another bad TOKIN (took about 20 more consoles, I stopped updating the spreadsheet since it was all redundant info lately, just lots of 3034 and reballs)
This one, however, presented rather strangely. CECHE01, maybe about 2 second YLOD. ERRLOG has A0403034, A0404401, and A0402120 for each YLOD and nothing else. Whole log is just those three at once. Oscilloscope shows totally dead CPU caps (100 mVpp rectified sine wave). GPU caps are on their way out, but had not yet transitioned to the totally dead waveform (these were a small 30-40 mVpp sawtooth with no stuttering). I haven't replaced them yet to verify that that's the ONLY issue, so I'll check back in again tonight or tomorrow.
Also, nice work @RIP-Felix ! Now DM me the link to the shop you got your chips from since I forgot to order new ones and yours definitely work! The market turned super hot on Sega recently, so I've pretty much been doing those exclusively for a month.
I'm stupid and measured CPU tokins *facepalm*
RSX tokins give me 2.3 ohms. Considering the resistance and syscon errors gonna desolder RSX at repair service and do a reball if RSX resistance is ok.
Not too sure what you mean exactly by different opinions on 3034.
But one thing is clear unfortunately. It has nothing to do with the capacitors.
3034 alone is data error. Failed communication (bittraining) between CPU and... RSX (or Southbridge).
But because you also have 44XX error and bringup is mentioning the RSX... You can know that the problem is between the CPU and the RSX.
Now It will always be ambiguous what is the root cause is exactly as you say. But in the real world is fair to ignore the CPU first and interpret this as the most common type of problem by far on these machines:
RSX problems.
I should mention this issue alone is a long story as well. RSX is a complex thing and can cause very confusing situations. (Most of the 200+ pages of this thread can be attributed to this funny problem and its implications...)
So in that sense, yes it can certainly be confusing as you say. There are many different kinds of "RSX problems". So it's always still a bit ambiguous. But unfortunately it's not because of capacitors sorry.
I'm stupid and measured CPU tokins *facepalm*
RSX tokins give me 2.3 ohms. Considering the resistance and syscon errors gonna desolder RSX at repair service and do a reball if RSX resistance is ok.
Although 2 ohms there doesn't mean anything in itself. It's quite normal value. 3, 2 or even 1 ohm can work. (Or not work... this is only the resistance of the core power to GND, there are way more things there that can go wrong).
Hello guys.
I bought CECHL04, replaced paste and assembly it.
Fan doesn't work and PS3 showed overheating message and shutted down.
I reassembly it, then fan was working but PS3 showed that message again, and now I can't turn it on.
After pressing power instantly beeps 3 times and red light is blinking.
Fan testing with eject button is working good.
Is there any chance that NEC replace will help?
Are you able to get the error codes? Check out the syscon page. Like many wise men before me said, dump the error codes before you go tearing those poor necs off.
so the 1200 has to do with the heat spreader not making contact with the fan. I had that, took it apart again and saw the paste didn't spread at all meaning no contact. I spread it and adjusted the fan and it made contact, error gone. As for 3001...I think it's a power supply problem. The 44xx/3034 is the real culprit. I suggest making sure the 1200 error is gone and doing bringup command to see where the PS3 fails. If it's 3034....well shiiiiieeet
As requested by RIP-Felix I have pulled the errlog using syscon per the instructions in this post. I've been really busy with summer activities so this was put on the backburner for a few weeks.
To summarize my first reply in this thread, I have (4) PS3's. My old CECHH that YLOD'd many years ago, and a CECHA and CECHB that I grabbed for cheap on FB Marketplace. The fourth is a ceramic white CECHL import that has never been tampered with and runs fine (for now). I jumped ahead and recapped the NEC/TOKINs on the H, A and B based on early feedback on this thread, and may have inadvertently reconnected/reflowed BGAs during the process. The H, A and B all came back to life and are still working. I delidded the A and B, the model A's RSX did not survive the delidding. The delidding was very successful on the model B.
I have ordered a 90nm RSX and a couple of NOS 40nm RSX to revive the model A in the future. I'm planning to do the "Frankenstein Phat" mod. I grabbed an extra 40nm for the assumed eventual failure of the model B.
I'll re-re-cap the H, A and B with the PS3 Tantalizer v0.2b and Panny 2R5TPE470M7 at some point down the line to get it back in spec.
The model A is dismembered into many bags and is not in any condition to pull codes.
so the 1200 has to do with the heat spreader not making contact with the fan. I had that, took it apart again and saw the paste didn't spread at all meaning no contact. I spread it and adjusted the fan and it made contact, error gone. As for 3001...I think it's a power supply problem. The 44xx/3034 is the real culprit. I suggest making sure the 1200 error is gone and doing bringup command to see where the PS3 fails. If it's 3034....well shiiiiieeet
20 3010 is a BE error occuring early in the boot process. My guess is that a BGA popped under a voltage line to the CPU. You also have 3034/40xx errors that indicate BGA problems. So, taken together, my diagnosis would be you need the CPU reballed. If you do that I would go ahead and have the RSX reballed at the same time. The tokins are not at fault, yet. We can't rule them out until the console is at a point where you can stress test it. At that time the 1002 error indicating bad tokins may still show up, but until then this is major concern.
